1. Zugzwang
    Joined
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    02 Oct '15 20:48
    Perhaps one thousand (or more) Muslim pilgrims were recently killed by
    being suffocated or trampled in Mecca. While they have dismissed the
    tragedy as an accident 'willed by God', Saudi Arabia's authorities have
    been widely condemned for failing to exercise responsible crowd control.
    A consolation (or rationalization) is that Muslims who die while on pilgrimage
    in Mecca supposedly (according to some) immediately ascend to Paradise.
    Nonetheless, few Muslims arrive in Mecca expecting (or hoping) to die there.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/oct/02/hajj-muslims-mecca-islam-protest-saudi-arabia

    "In Mecca I saw little of Islam's compassion. but a lot of Saudi Arabia's neglect."
    --Sabreena Razaq Hussain (2 October 2015)

    "I fully understand why hundreds of people were crushed to death,
    and I don't believe that "God's will" can be used as an excuse. ...
    I believe Islam is based on reason: unless you have done everything you
    can within your means to actively avoid a bad situation, you cannot use
    the excuse of it being God's will."
    --Sabreena Razaq Hussain

    "In Mecca I saw Muslims, but I saw little Islam. I did not see compassion
    from our hosts, I did not see concern for our welfare. .. Pilgrimmage is
    supposed to enlighten and change lives, not endanger or end them.
    It is time to reclaim it."
    --Sabreena Razaq Hussein
  2. Joined
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    02 Oct '15 21:27
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    Perhaps one thousand (or more) Muslim pilgrims were recently killed by
    being suffocated or trampled in Mecca. While they have dismissed the
    tragedy as an accident 'willed by God', Saudi Arabia's authorities have
    been widely condemned for failing to exercise responsible crowd control.
    A consolation (or rationalization) is that Muslims who die while on ...[text shortened]... d change lives, not endanger or end them.
    It is time to reclaim it."
    --Sabreena Razaq Hussein
    Do you agree?
  3. Joined
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    02 Oct '15 23:31
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    Perhaps one thousand (or more) Muslim pilgrims were recently killed by
    being suffocated or trampled in Mecca. While they have dismissed the
    tragedy as an accident 'willed by God', Saudi Arabia's authorities have
    been widely condemned for failing to exercise responsible crowd control.
    A consolation (or rationalization) is that Muslims who die while on ...[text shortened]... d change lives, not endanger or end them.
    It is time to reclaim it."
    --Sabreena Razaq Hussein
    Reason # 352,268,236,278,398,431,583,235 not to become a Muslim
  4. Joined
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    02 Oct '15 23:32
    And a crane came crashing down killing a bunch more at their holy site as a strong wind hit it on 9/11.

    Coincidence?
  5. Joined
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    03 Oct '15 07:27
    Originally posted by whodey
    Coincidence?
    What do you think it was if it wasn't coincidence?
  6. Zugzwang
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    03 Oct '15 21:511 edit
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Do you agree?
    Agree with what exactly, out of many comments made by a recent Muslim pilgrim to Mecca?

    I was not in Mecca recently, so I cannot make any independent observations about it.
    As an atheist, I don't believe that Islam (or any other religion) is 'based on reason'.
    Given that I doubt that God exists, I don't accept any "it was God's will".explanations.
    And I believe that Muslim pilgrims should have a reasonable expectation that they can
    visit Mecca safely and return home without being trampled to death evidently because
    Saudi Arabia's authorities are too incompetent or unconcerned about managing crowds.

    "Crowds are unwieldy and amorphous. If you've ever been swept up in one, you know
    that to be among the press of a crowd is to physically cease to operate as an individual.
    It;'s like being pulled by a current. You become an element of a much larger thing."

    At a 1979 WHO concert in the USA, about 80% of the tickets sold were for general admission.
    When the crowd heard the band warming up, they mistakenly assumed it was the opening
    number and rushed in to find desirable places to stand. Eleven people died in the crush.
    Thoughtless management of crowds can have deadly consequences.
  7. Joined
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    03 Oct '15 22:131 edit
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    Agree with what exactly...
    With whatever your point was in your OP?
  8. SubscriberSuzianne
    Misfit Queen
    Isle of Misfit Toys
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    04 Oct '15 07:32
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    At a 1979 WHO concert in the USA, about 80% of the tickets sold were for general admission.
    When the crowd heard the band warming up, they mistakenly assumed it was the opening
    number and rushed in to find desirable places to stand. Eleven people died in the crush.
    Thoughtless management of crowds can have deadly consequences.
    About ten years ago I was at a Scorpions concert at an outdoor arena. I had gotten there early and was fairly close to the stage. There had to be 20,000 people there and the crush near the front was incredible, with bodies right up against each other. When I felt the crowd doing this weird side-to-side motion, I decided to pull back and made my way back to a place where I could move around on my own without the crowd moving me. I'm sort of small (63" tall) and I felt I had to get out of there before something happened. I ended up talking to others who did the same thing I did. Maybe enough of us moved back to avoid anyone getting seriously hurt. But being in a crowd and having no control of where it moves you is no joke, and God help you if you stumble during the process.
  9. Joined
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    04 Oct '15 18:07
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    Agree with what exactly, out of many comments made by a recent Muslim pilgrim to Mecca?

    I was not in Mecca recently, so I cannot make any independent observations about it.
    As an atheist, I don't believe that Islam (or any other religion) is 'based on reason'.
    Given that I doubt that God exists, I don't accept any "it was God's will".explanations.
    An ...[text shortened]... Eleven people died in the crush.
    Thoughtless management of crowds can have deadly consequences.
    I had no idea the WHO were Islamic.
  10. Zugzwang
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    04 Oct '15 19:563 edits
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    About ten years ago I was at a Scorpions concert at an outdoor arena. I had gotten there early and was fairly close to the stage. There had to be 20,000 people there and the crush near the front was incredible, with bodies right up against each other. When I felt the crowd doing this weird side-to-side motion, I decided to pull back and made my way back t ...[text shortened]... no control of where it moves you is no joke, and God help you if you stumble during the process.
    Suzianne, thanks for being the first non-troll to write a response in this thread.

    When a woman's trapped within a crowd of men, she can be sexually assaulted (at least
    easily through unwelcome groping) without outsiders (including her friends) being able
    to come to her aid quickly enough or even to observe clearly what's happening to her.
    In a highly publicized 2011 incident, Lara Logan (a CBS news reporter) was sexually
    assaulted (for about 25 minutes) by a crowd of men in Cairo's Tahrir Square.
    She was rescued when a group of women, supported by some men, intervened.
    Afterward, some Western commentators criticized Lara Logan for being foolhardy in
    venturing without adequate security (other CBS news people were unable to protect her)
    into a potentially hostile crowd of men.

    "...and God help you if you stumble during the process."
    --Suzianne

    While I know that 'God help you' is a figure of speech, did you, Suzianne, truly expect
    God to protect you from being trampled or suffocated by the press of the crowd?
    Or did you prefer to take precautions just in case God was not paying attention to you?
  11. Joined
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    04 Oct '15 19:59
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    When a woman's trapped within a crowd of men, she can be sexually assaulted (at least
    easily through unwelcome groping) without outsiders (including her friends) being able
    to come to her aid quickly enough or even to observe clearly what's happening to her.

    "...and God help you if you stumble during the process."
    --Suzianne

    While I know that ' ...[text shortened]... crowd?
    Or did you prefer to take precautions just in case God was not paying attention to you?
    Have you ever wished you were a women, trapped in a crowd of men, being groped against your will?
  12. Mar-a-Lago
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    11 Oct '15 18:31
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Have you ever wished you were a women, trapped in a crowd of men, being groped against your will?
    No
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