1. Joined
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    29 Jul '05 08:491 edit
    "Man was born free, and he is everywhere in chains." (Rousseau 1762 The Social Contract)

    Thoughts??
  2. Standard memberNyxie
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    29 Jul '05 09:51
    Originally posted by Serendipity
    "Man was born free, and he is everywhere in chains." (Rousseau 1762 The Social Contract)

    Thoughts??
    I have many, thanks for asking though.


    In this quote I don't think he was referring just to metal material chains, but chains of society and thought.
  3. Joined
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    29 Jul '05 10:03
    Originally posted by Nyxie
    I have many, thanks for asking though.


    In this quote I don't think he was referring just to metal material chains, but chains of society and thought.
    Obviously.but do you agree? Do you agree that we are born free, what do you think the definition of freedom is, does freedom exist, are we socially, economically and culturally chained?
  4. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    29 Jul '05 11:31
    Originally posted by Serendipity
    Obviously.but do you agree? Do you agree that we are born free, what do you think the definition of freedom is, does freedom exist, are we socially, economically and culturally chained?
    I don't think the concept of freedom can be defined except through enactment.

    But is freedom a concept or a physical reality?
  5. Joined
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    29 Jul '05 11:47
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    I don't think the concept of freedom can be defined except through enactment.

    But is freedom a concept or a physical reality?
    Well....its obviously a conccept otherwise we wouldn't be debating it now...But a physical reality I think not.... What is freedom? To do what you want when you want?? Even in a foraging society you have to hunt for your needs not your wants, so maybe frredom belongs to the gods.
  6. Joined
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    29 Jul '05 18:01
    Originally posted by Serendipity
    Well....its obviously a conccept otherwise we wouldn't be debating it now...But a physical reality I think not.... What is freedom? To do what you want when you want?? Even in a foraging society you have to hunt for your needs not your wants, so maybe frredom belongs to the gods.
    No philosophical comments today 🙁
  7. Standard memberkrisvictor
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    29 Jul '05 18:54
    Originally posted by Serendipity
    Well....its obviously a conccept otherwise we wouldn't be debating it now...But a physical reality I think not.... What is freedom? To do what you want when you want?? Even in a foraging society you have to hunt for your needs not your wants, so maybe frredom belongs to the gods.
    Freedom is not "obviously a concept".
    I believe freedom is what you accept it to be.
    However, you have the freedom to believe it is a concept as I have the freedom to disagree with you.
    If you are made physically immobile, you still have the freedom to think and create original thought!
    However, if your concious thoughts are made un-concious, you lose the freedom to conciously think as well as conciously move.
    You have the freedom to eat or not eat.
    You have the freedom to perish or live.
    You have the freedom to choose right from wrong (or vice-versa).
    You do not have to hunt for your needs if all you need is to eat. There are plenty to eat if you know where to look.
    However, if you WANT venison, then you have to hunt deer.
    oh dear...
  8. Felicific Forest
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    29 Jul '05 19:06

    You can also be free from disease ... or free from fear .... or free from cold ....
  9. Standard memberkrisvictor
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    29 Jul '05 20:23
    Originally posted by ivanhoe

    You can also be free from disease ... or free from fear .... or free from cold ....
    Can you truly be free from disease or fear or cold?
    Can we truly say we have absolutely no impurities in our bodies that can be considered diseases?
    Can we truly have no fear whatsoever even in the most hidden areas of our mind?
    And what do you mean by "free from cold"? Do you mean... the cold virus or the cold temperature?
    What do we measure by?
  10. Felicific Forest
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    29 Jul '05 21:02
    Originally posted by krisvictor
    Can you truly be free from disease or fear or cold?
    Can we truly say we have absolutely no impurities in our bodies that can be considered diseases?
    Can we truly have no fear whatsoever even in the most hidden areas of our mind?
    And what do you mean by "free from cold"? Do you mean... the cold virus or the cold temperature?
    What do we measure by?

    My posts purpose was to emphasise the fact that there is more to freedom than mere the "choice" side.

    Krisviktor: "What do we measure by?

    I do not see a reason to measure it.
  11. Joined
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    30 Jul '05 09:13
    Originally posted by krisvictor
    Freedom is not "obviously a concept".
    I believe freedom is what you accept it to be.
    However, you have the freedom to believe it is a concept as I have the freedom to disagree with you.
    If you are made physically immobile, you still have the freedom to think and create original thought!
    However, if your concious thoughts are made un-concious, you ...[text shortened]... you know where to look.
    However, if you WANT venison, then you have to hunt deer.
    oh dear...
    But what freedom do you have? You come to this world a tabla rasa and are indocrinated with the cultural ideology of the particular country you're born into. Then you accrue psychological baggage from your upbringing, oh and don't forget the restrictions of the particular class sytem you've inherited. Then these 3maladies influence your every action and like some little automoton you live your life making choices that are limited by the restrictions/ethos of the software that was downloaded into your hardware (brain).

    So from the above dialectic I think that we have no freedom/free will...
    Rousseau was right.... "Man was born free, and he is everywhere in chains"

    Born free= tabla rasa
    And the chains are the ethnocentricity that culture creates, and in turn is created by it, society and its rules, psychological issues and the class system, and I'm sure there's alot more links to those chains that can be added to this list.

    Freedom is a concept, an idealised one so that humanity doesn't realise how unfree they actually are..........
  12. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    30 Jul '05 10:30
    We're completely free to be as idiotic as we want at any given time.
  13. Joined
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    30 Jul '05 10:36
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    We're completely free to be as idiotic as we want at any given time.
    Good point.........but thats partial ftreedom, its not freedom represented in its totality ie being completely free to be as intelligent as we want at any time 🙂
  14. Standard memberkrisvictor
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    03 Aug '05 03:07
    Originally posted by Serendipity
    ...
    So from the above dialectic I think that we have no freedom/free will...
    Rousseau was right.... "Man was born free, and he is everywhere in chains"

    Born free= tabla rasa
    And the chains are the ethnocentricity that culture creates, and in turn is created by it, society and its rules, psychological issues and the class system, and I'm sure the ...[text shortened]... cept, an idealised one so that humanity doesn't realise how unfree they actually are..........
    As you say, if we are, indeed, "born free", then we also have the freedom to refuse the chains that may bind us. We have the very freedom to accept or reject the culture of which we were born. Does one have to follow rules? Isn't there always an alternative choice? Add as many chains to the list as you want. Each of us still have the "freedom to choose" which of the chains to bind us and which to refuse.
  15. Joined
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    03 Aug '05 15:441 edit
    Originally posted by krisvictor
    As you say, if we are, indeed, "born free", then we also have the freedom to refuse the chains that may bind us. We have the very freedom to accept or reject the culture of which we were born. Does one have to follow rules? Isn't ther ...[text shortened]... to choose" which of the chains to bind us and which to refuse.
    Only if you're aware of your bondage, many aren't, some are but even then not in their totality .

    Cultural Indocrination ?
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