1. Standard memberSwissGambit
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    23 Apr '08 18:53
    Originally posted by legochessmaniac
    How very ironic. Really, I had absolutely no idea that the theory I put forward was "Pascal's Wager." I've honestly never heard of it before, so, technically, I wasn't using it. A simple mistake. An easy one to make. Mistakes are part of what make us human, our weaknesses.

    This isn't the first time I've thought of a theory already existing. When I ...[text shortened]... rely warning that they have been mislead by a society they KNOW is corrupt.
    Wait a minute. You've been talking about Pascal's Wager in this thread. Why are you now lying by claiming you never heard of it before? Care to revise your statement?
  2. Joined
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    23 Apr '08 18:58
    Originally posted by legochessmaniac
    How very ironic. Really, I had absolutely no idea that the theory I put forward was "Pascal's Wager." I've honestly never heard of it before, so, technically, I wasn't using it. A simple mistake. An easy one to make. Mistakes are part of what make us human, our weaknesses.

    This isn't the first time I've thought of a theory already existing. When I ...[text shortened]... rely warning that they have been mislead by a society they KNOW is corrupt.
    What happens if you are wrong about your God? What happens then? You die and you were worshipping to the wrong God all along. Isn't that the same argument? You believe something, I believe something, atheists believe something (assuming that believing that god doesn't exist still counts as a belief). We all have the same to lose, don't we?
  3. PenTesting
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    23 Apr '08 19:15
    Originally posted by brobluto
    ...We all have the same to lose, don't we?
    No.

    The consequences of being wrong is not the same for both parties.
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    23 Apr '08 19:20
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    No.

    The consequences of being wrong is not the same for both parties.
    How is it not? Not believing in God and worshipping the wrong God. How are there 2 different consequences for not believing in the right God? and how do you know that?
  5. A State of Mind
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    23 Apr '08 19:40
    Originally posted by brobluto
    What happens if you are wrong about your God? What happens then? You die and you were worshipping to the wrong God all along. Isn't that the same argument? You believe something, I believe something, atheists believe something (assuming that believing that god doesn't exist still counts as a belief). We all have the same to lose, don't we?
    Touche'. I'm not the only one who made a mistake.

    An atheist saying we both have the same to lose is like a GM who starts a chess game with only his king. He must think his opponent's an idiot.

    The question still stands. Aren't atheists afraid that they have less faith than the common housefly? A housefly never refuted God.
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    23 Apr '08 19:51
    Originally posted by legochessmaniac
    Aren't atheists afraid that they have less faith than the common housefly?
    No.
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    23 Apr '08 19:582 edits
    Originally posted by legochessmaniac
    Touche'. I'm not the only one who made a mistake.

    An atheist saying we both have the same to lose is like a GM who starts a chess game with only his king. He must think his opponent's an idiot.

    The question still stands. Aren't atheists afraid that they have less faith than the common housefly? A housefly never refuted God.
    I'd say the theist is more like the GM. He's hoping that God will make him win.

    I believe in God, don't get me wrong. Except my God is:

    a. so infinite that I can't possibly comprehend all aspects of him
    b. so forgiving that no matter what I do or don't do, I'll still be accepted whereever when I die. (if there is an afterlife)
    c. smarter, because he realizes that playing mind tricks with humans that are so inferior to him is cruel, and since he's so good, he doesn't care to do so.
    d. rational enough that he does not require humans to prove their belief and love of him when he has not provided proof enough of his existence to them personally (not 2000 years ago).

    How can an atheist be afraid of something that he doesn't believe exists? It's like saying you're afraid of the boogie man even though you don't think he exists.

    Edit: Are you saying there are houseflies in heaven?
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    23 Apr '08 20:13
    Just had another thought. Why does God require us to believe in him? Or even want us to? What effect does us believing in him or not, have on him directly? What's in it for him? If nothing, then God is senseless. If his existence relies on our beliefs, then he's not all powerful and could not have created the world.
  9. A State of Mind
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    23 Apr '08 21:26
    Originally posted by brobluto
    How is it not? Not believing in God and worshipping the wrong God. How are there 2 different consequences for not believing in the right God? and how do you know that?
    If one worships the wrong God, without knowledge of a better alternative, Christians believe that God will NOT condemn those who do not know any better. That is why it is so important that those who have the means to research NOT give in to impatience. It is therefore safer to believe in God than not to.

    Example:

    A Jew is raised his entire life never knowing about Christ. If Christ does exist, when this Jew dies, there is nothing God can hold against him, because he didn't know any better.

    In today's age of hyper-connectivity, it is much simpler to stay out of it in the first place. Since, for those of you reading this, you obviously have the means to research every aspect of your beliefs, you must do so to set an active example to those around you. If you fail to study your beliefs (theist or atheist) in depth, you fail the most important part of your life by doing it an injustice.

    Now with that argument, one could--theoretically--argue the martyrdom of the 9/11 hijackers as being lawful. That these "martyrs" as they're called, were either psychopaths, or that they were brought up in a group secluded from society, therefore the only thing they saw from America was the a type of "morallity" that offended their beliefs. In either case they didn't know any better, eliminating their responsibility. I certainly don't condone their massacre, so they could just as well be condemned. They were, however, willing to die for their beliefs, and that is--commendable. The point is that we'll never know for sure, which is why it doesn't matter.

    People seem to presume they're right or wrong simply because one aspect of ther belief cannot be disproved.
  10. A State of Mind
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    23 Apr '08 21:44
    The only reason God wants us to exist is because He loves us. He made a promise to us that He would never compromise our free will. We can certainly still mess up bad. Regardless of whether or not His promise was a good one for Him, He can't compromise Himself without becoming imperfect.

    Atheists may not believe that good comes out of evil. Neither may theists, but if one believes God is infinite, we should act out of utmost respect and awe for our creator. Evil is a test. "As gold in the furnace, he proved them, and as sacrificial offerings he took them to himself." (NAB Wisdom 3:2)
    9
    Those who trust in him shall understand truth, and the faithful shall abide with him in love: Because grace and mercy are with his holy ones, and his care is with the elect.
    10
    But the wicked shall receive a punishment to match their thoughts, since they neglected justice and forsook the LORD.
    11
    For he who despises wisdom and instruction is doomed. Vain is their hope, fruitless are their labors, and worthless are their works.
    12
    Their wives are foolish and their children wicked; accursed is their brood.

    (NAB 3:9-12)
  11. Standard memberThequ1ck
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    23 Apr '08 21:542 edits
    Originally posted by brobluto
    I'd say the theist is more like the GM. He's hoping that God will make him win.

    I believe in God, don't get me wrong. Except my God is:

    a. so infinite that I can't possibly comprehend all aspects of him
    b. so forgiving that no matter what I do or don't do, I'll still be accepted whereever when I die. (if there is an afterlife)
    c. smarter, because he h you don't think he exists.

    Edit: Are you saying there are houseflies in heaven?
    a. If God is infinitite he must also be finite.
    b. If God is forgiving he must also be merciless
    c. If God is smart he must also be dumb
    d. If God is rational, he must also be irrational
    e. If God is he, it must also be she.
    f. If God is truth it must also be lie.
    g. If God is describable, it must also be undescribable.
    h. If God is God it must also be not God.

    Babble -
    –verb (used without object)
    1. to utter sounds or words imperfectly, indistinctly, or without meaning.
    2. to talk idly, irrationally, excessively, or foolishly; chatter or prattle.
    3. to make a continuous, murmuring sound.
    –verb (used with object)
    4. to utter in an incoherent, foolish, or meaningless fashion.
    5. to reveal foolishly or thoughtlessly: to babble a secret.
    –noun
    6. inarticulate or imperfect speech.
    7. foolish, meaningless, or incoherent speech; prattle.
    8. a murmuring sound or a confusion of sounds.
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/babble
  12. Standard memberAThousandYoung
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    23 Apr '08 22:06
    Originally posted by legochessmaniac
    Here's what I don't understand about atheists. It does in no way surprise me the simple refutations that were made to my last comment. What does surprise me is how big a wager each atheist makes.

    Atheists have everything to lose and nothing to gain; Theists have everythng to gain and nothing to lose. We can argue 'til the end of time whether God e ...[text shortened]... ing a BIG gamble with their own eternal lives, especially when theists have nothing to lose?
    But how do you know which of the infinite possible mutually contadictory Gods to worship? Maybe God wrote the Bible to test our faith. How do you know?
  13. A State of Mind
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    23 Apr '08 22:221 edit
    Of course God wrote the Bible to test our faith. That's the point of the Bible, to challenge US to conform to it, rather than IT to conform to OUR pleasures.

    There are multiple false denominations because people want to pick and choose. The Bible tells us NOT to do that:

    1
    1 2 O stupid Galatians! Who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?
    2
    I want to learn only this from you: did you receive the Spirit from works of the law, or from faith in what you heard? 3
    3
    Are you so stupid? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now ending with the flesh? 4
    4
    Did you experience so many things 5 in vain?--if indeed it was in vain.
    5
    Does, then, the one who supplies the Spirit to you and works mighty deeds among you do so from works of the law or from faith in what you heard?
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    Thus Abraham "believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." 6
    7
    7 Realize then that it is those who have faith who are children of Abraham.
    8
    Scripture, which saw in advance that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, foretold the good news to Abraham, saying, "Through you shall all the nations be blessed."
    9
    Consequently, those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham who had faith.
    10
    8 For all who depend on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed be everyone who does not persevere in doing all the things written in the book of the law."
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    And that no one is justified before God by the law is clear, for "the one who is righteous by faith will live."
    12
    But the law does not depend on faith; rather, "the one who does these things will live by them."
    13
    Christ ransomed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written, "Cursed be everyone who hangs on a tree,"
    14
    that the blessing of Abraham might be extended to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
    15
    9 Brothers, in human terms I say that no one can annul or amend even a human will once ratified.
    16
    Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his descendant. 10 It does not say, "And to descendants," as referring to many, but as referring to one, "And to your descendant," who is Christ.
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    This is what I mean: the law, which came four hundred and thirty years afterward, 11 does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to cancel the promise.
    18
    For if the inheritance comes from the law, it is no longer from a promise; but God bestowed it on Abraham through a promise. 12
    19
    13 14 Why, then, the law? It was added for transgressions, until the descendant came to whom the promise had been made; it was promulgated by angels at the hand of a mediator.
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    Now there is no mediator when only one party is involved, and God is one.
    21
    Is the law then opposed to the promises (of God)? Of course not! For if a law had been given that could bring life, then righteousness would in reality come from the law.
    22
    But scripture confined all things under the power of sin, that through faith in Jesus Christ the promise might be given to those who believe.
    23
    15 Before faith came, we were held in custody under law, confined for the faith that was to be revealed.
    24
    Consequently, the law was our disciplinarian 16 for Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
    25
    But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a disciplinarian.
    26
    For through faith you are all children of God 17 in Christ Jesus.
    27
    18 19 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
    28
    There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free person, there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
    29
    And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendant, heirs according to the promise.

    (NAB Gal 3)
  14. Standard memberSwissGambit
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    23 Apr '08 22:25
    Originally posted by SwissGambit
    Wait a minute. You've been talking about Pascal's Wager in this thread. Why are you now lying by claiming you never heard of it before? Care to revise your statement?
    **whistles the "Jeopardy" theme**
  15. PenTesting
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    23 Apr '08 22:26
    Originally posted by brobluto
    How is it not? Not believing in God and worshipping the wrong God. How are there 2 different consequences for not believing in the right God? and how do you know that?
    You seem to be making statements about the Bible without actually knowing what the Bible says. eg you said .... "The bible also says that god will hold true the laws that men set on earth, in heaven. ...." Which I asked you to verify but you obviously cannot.

    Now you are saying that an atheist - a man that denies the existance of God is equivalent to one to worships God but for some reason you say its the wrong God.

    The Bible calls atheists fools :
    PS 14:1 ... The fool hath said in his heart, THERE IS NO GOD. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
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