Religion=opportunity for control freaks.

This kind of thing started long before the present miasma of modern religions.

It happens whenever a person can give some half asssed explanation for something like lightning, thunder and the like, and that person is regarded as a shaman, village king or whatever.

During ancient days when people sought control over the public, religion was naturally the best route to do that.

So they had writings from earlier days, came up with a theology all on their own using paved over even older religions and just like that, Christianity was born.

And so it is with every other religion. Man made, but convincing people the directives came from some god or other.

Thus a magnificent edifice was built to control people and subjugate women, all in one stroke. Pure genius, you have to admit.

The proof is in the pudding as they say, 2000 years and now billions of people follow the BS handed down from long ago, to the point now where just having the words in a book is enough to totally dupe generation after generation of people. Pure genius.

Originally posted by sonhouse
This kind of thing started long before the present miasma of modern religions.

It happens whenever a person can give some half asssed explanation for something like lightning, thunder and the like, and that person is regarded as a shaman, village king or whatever.

During ancient days when people sought control over the public, religion was naturally ...[text shortened]... he words in a book is enough to totally dupe generation after generation of people. Pure genius.

You're just as dogmatic against religion as any of those whose religion is an important part of their life.

Were you touched inappropriately by a priest when you were a kid?

Let go of the hate.

Originally posted by Suzianne
You're just as dogmatic against religion as any of those whose religion is an important part of their life.

Were you touched inappropriately by a priest when you were a kid?

Let go of the hate.

Hate? You totally misunderestimate my position🙂

Here is a quote from Phillip K Dick, a registered genius!:

The basic tool for the manipulation of reality is the manipulation of words. If you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use the words.

Quite apropos don't you think?

I just think all religions are a symptom of the immaturity of the human race.

Mature civilizations, truly mature, IMHO, won't need such crutches.

Originally posted by Suzianne
You're just as dogmatic against religion as any of those whose religion is an important part of their life.

Were you touched inappropriately by a priest when you were a kid?

Let go of the hate.

i totally asked him that in a previous thread.

hi 5!

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
i totally asked him that in a previous thread.

hi 5!

I never was touched by a priest, appropriate or not. Comparative religious study as an 8 yo did it quite nicely.

It wasn't study per se but more like getting your nose rubbed in it.

Grandma telling me, who had already been going to the First Lutheran School in El Monte, California for 3 years, having been duly baptized in the Lutheran faith, was told by dear old Granma I would die and go to hell, burning all over forever and ever if I WASN"T BAPTIZED IN THE PENTACOSTAL WAY. Total dunking in water as opposed to the sprinkles of the Lutherans and Catholics.

That was an eye opener.

Originally posted by sonhouse
Hate? You totally misunderestimate my position🙂

Here is a quote from Phillip K Dick, a registered genius!:

The basic tool for the manipulation of reality is the manipulation of words. If you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use the words.

Quite apropos don't you think?

I just think all religions are a sympto ...[text shortened]... ity of the human race.

Mature civilizations, truly mature, IMHO, won't need such crutches.

Please explain in more detail as to why you consider religion as a sign of immaturity of a civilisation. Also what do you mean by immaturity of a civilisation. Toynbee and H.G.Wells are said to be the experts on this. What is their view? Did Roman empire decline because of rise of Christianity or because of other causes?

Everyone has only experienced false religion.

This is why religion is suspect and rightly so.

But away from the glittering lights of the world there is true religion which is only know by those sincere souls who have searched high and low for knowledge of God and self.

False religion caters for all those insincere persons who are more interested in the seventy seven virgins in heaven and killing for flesh...

True religion will never entice converts with promises of material forefillment.

If you are one of those persons that say true religion does not exist then you are misinformed and insincere.

Originally posted by Dasa
Everyone has only experienced false religion.

This is why religion is suspect and rightly so.

But away from the glittering lights of the world there is true religion which is only know by those sincere souls who have searched high and low for knowledge of God and self.

False religion caters for all those insincere persons who are more interested in th ...[text shortened]... e of those persons that say true religion does not exist then you are misinformed and insincere.

Everyone has only experienced false religion.

I see.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
Please explain in more detail as to why you consider religion as a sign of immaturity of a civilisation. Also what do you mean by immaturity of a civilisation. Toynbee and H.G.Wells are said to be the experts on this. What is their view? Did Roman empire decline because of rise of Christianity or because of other causes?

I think the Roman empire collapsed due to a number of issues, one being complacency of the leaders, perhaps partially due to the fact they drank wine in leaded glass vessels and they all got a high dose of lead poisoning, that alone could lead to the downfall of a civilization, not knowing environmental effects and such.

I don't think Christianity was the main cause of Rome's fall, they had plenty of other religions before that.

Christianity would have led to a certain arrogance on the part of the early followers, being convinced, then as now, that their religion was the only true religion and therefore worth fighting wars over.

That to me is a sign of immaturity in a civilization, when arrogance leads them to believe they are the only true versions of humanity or carry the high moral ground.

In our own day, christianity is causing strife in the US almost daily, with challenges in our legal system to force creationism to be taught in a science classroom along side evolution as if creationism deserved consideration as a science. It is not and never will be a science. It is based on hearsay, the entire religion of christianity and all other faith based religions are fundamentally based on hearsay.

Anyone who thinks they have been personally contacted by a god is hallucinating and needs medical attention.

When the leaders of a civilization profess to being of a certain religion, they are actively promoting a connection between church and state.

Another sign of immaturity.

I know China had bad results from the imposition of atheism and it seems humans at our present level of development needs some kind of religious assurance, being faced with so many difficulties of life.

In that sense, there needs to be something to uplift humans to not be afraid of forces outside their control. Religion gives them a false sense of security.

For that reason and that reason alone, the leaders of religions sell their product and add to the misery of the world with religious based wars, pogroms such as what is going on as we speak in Darfur, forced conversions to Islam but it happened plenty of times with Christianity too, like Cortez conquering the Aztecs and similar abuses around the world.

That underlying arrogance of religion is what makes it such a negative force that destroys indigenous cultures and has happened like that for thousands of years.

I just want to break that cycle and live in a civilization that goes beyond that basic need.

Originally posted by sonhouse
This kind of thing started long before the present miasma of modern religions.

It happens whenever a person can give some half asssed explanation for something like lightning, thunder and the like, and that person is regarded as a shaman, village king or whatever.

During ancient days when people sought control over the public, religion was naturally ...[text shortened]... he words in a book is enough to totally dupe generation after generation of people. Pure genius.

Get over your rejection my friend.

Control, hate, war, bitterness, all come in many forms.

Douchbaggergy is everywhere.

Originally posted by sonhouse
This kind of thing started long before the present miasma of modern religions.

It happens whenever a person can give some half asssed explanation for something like lightning, thunder and the like, and that person is regarded as a shaman, village king or whatever.

During ancient days when people sought control over the public, religion was naturally ...[text shortened]... he words in a book is enough to totally dupe generation after generation of people. Pure genius.

Well, I see how religion in ancient society was exploited to control people. In Roman religion, the senatorial deification of emperors was obviously a way to legitimate imperial power. Augustus' successors could use the precedent of Caesar and Augustus' deification as a validation of their divine right of rulership. Obviously too Virgil's mythologising of the Julian dynasty, suggesting its origin in Aeneas and therefore Venus, was part of this, bolstering Augustus' kingship (even if Augustus was never officially viewed as king). Religion and myths associated with it could be manipulated for purposes of political expediency.

But I think it's naive to suggest that control is the only reason for religion or that religion inevitably involves the subjugation of women. Roman religion for example seems to spring from very superstitious insincts. The Romans really did believe in auspices, for example. I can't think of any underlying political motive for them to put so much value on the neighing of horses, the flight of geese or such random phenomena. It certainly vested the augurs with great power but I am not aware of any case where such power was used for control.

Ancient religion in fact seems to be one of the few loci of society where women did in fact have power. Rome for example had the Vestal virgins who had great status in society. But even outside of Rome, at the very extreme end of the ancient world, the Germani worshipped women as goddesses and believed that they carried within them the numinous (so Tacitus says in the Germania.) This is despite the fact that men were generally exonerated from agricultural labor and in fact spent most of the day sleeping while women were responsible for domestic/agricultural work. Religion was one area in which women were empowered.

The full story of religion is very complicated. I doubt it can simply be explained away as an instrument of patriarchal control.

Originally posted by Dasa
Everyone has only experienced false religion.

that's true. you should've stopped there, you contradicted yourself later.

AOriginally posted by Conrau K
Well, I see how religion in ancient society was exploited to control people. In Roman religion, the senatorial deification of emperors was obviously a way to legitimate imperial power. Augustus' successors could use the precedent of Caesar and Augustus' deification as a validation of their divine right of rulership. Obviously too Virgil's mythologising of ...[text shortened]... plicated. I doubt it can simply be explained away as an instrument of patriarchal control.

I think the ancient feminine religions led to a kind of emancipation of men, driven to come out from under the thumb of women, so modern religions could be thought of as some kind of payback for centuries of female rule. I think that started with the Minoans who had female gods and such, but the Theran eruption probably led to a weakening of their civilization, it didn't kill them outright but it looks now like the Mycenaean's were able to take advantage of that weakness to attack and take over the Minoans, still having female gods but adding the Olympian crew to the mix and I think that was the beginning of the end of female religious hegemony.

Of course religions have gotten more sophisticated, sneaky even, over the course of centuries since the Minoans, for instance, just a guess on my part but I don't think the ancient religions would give out food to the poor, any giving would have been from the people to the religion. That is just my take on it and I may be totally bonkers about that but religions like Mormonism makes a point out of helping the poorer members of their faith, I know that, seeing my Mormon sister getting substantial help, food and money, from the church. The food they gave her was very high quality, the Deseret brand prided themselves on that.

But there is that tiny problem with the religious monkey on the backs of the average Mormon. When they started, the polygamy, the attacks to drive out non-Mormons made to look like indian attacks, they have a lot to answer for. Of course it was 2 centuries back but religions like that can start up at any time. Just because we think we are in the oh so sophisticated century 21 doesn't have anything to do with the fact a new religion can start up out of the blue with bizarre rituals and such.

All you have to do is look at the "Rapture" and the like, and 20th century tragedies like the Jim Jones massacre to see the so-called sophistication of a society is no protection against religious nut jobs like David Koresh and the like from taking over a group of people, small fry at the start but Mormonism was small at the start and likewise that 'religion' that came out of a boast at a party, L Ron Hubbard says, "I can start a religion, and did just that, making Scientology a billion dollar industry.

Ask Tom Cruise or Kirstie Alley or John Travolta about that one🙂

Christianity was the first religion with a real sales pitch, followed a few centuries later by the second sales pitch religion, Islam.

Now at loggerheads with no end in sight. We may live in some kind of rather tense harmony in the US but try being Christian in Gaza, ask people in Bethlehem, the REAL one, not the one next to us in Allentown🙂

Ask a Bethlehem Christian how many are now left when it used to be about 50/50 and now more like 90/10, pretty blatant anti Christian bias there. I know that for a fact having lived in Jerusalem for 4 years and saw it up close.

Lebanon used to be pretty liberal in the treatment of religions there but lately Christians there have been leaving too.

Islam and Christianity in the East are not compatible and will never be so. They will always, or so it seems, to be at war.

This is not a case of boys will be boys and its just a cultural thing, it goes a lot deeper than that. People who have not lived in the middle east will have a hard time digesting that but neither Christianity or Islam is anything like religions of peace. Sure there will be peace, when there are no Christians left and the rest are all Islam, or vice versa.

This is all based on one issue, fighting over what kind of a god you worship.

If that is not a sign of civilizational immaturity I don't know what it is.

I would not rail against religions if our basic civilization was anything like mature but like immature adults who think they are right and everyone else is wrong, you cannot call such a civilization mature.

Civilization will only be mature when we can either shuck the whole idea of religion, my desire, or to embrace diametrically opposed religions like Christians V Islam, Jesus worshipers V Satanists, allow them in our homes, have parties, marry them, have kids, have barbies, drink a beer while Satanists, Christians, Jews and Muslims are rooting for their home football team, until then we are immature as a civilization.

That's my story and I am sticking to it.

Originally posted by Dasa
Everyone has only experienced false religion.

Come and read the Holy Bible with an open heart, being ready to forget all the dogma you've been taught about it. Pray for the strength to let God show you the truth.

Maybe then you'll be ready to abandon *your* false religion.

Originally posted by sonhouse
Here is a quote from Phillip K Dick, a registered genius!:

The basic tool for the manipulation of reality is the manipulation of words. If you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use the words.

Quite apropos don't you think?

The Police wrote:

"Poets, priests and politicians

Have words to thank for their positions.

Words that scream for your submission

And no one's jamming their transmission."


I won't deny the truth of this. As Dive said, there are douchebags in every facet of human life. Yes, even religion. Sometimes *especially* religion.

But to extend the concept with "Therefore, NO religion is any good at all" is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.