I gather that in some religious faiths and maybe in some magical systems one possible or maybe even primary avenue of spiritual development involves some kind of transformation or dissolution of the ego.
In the case of Christianity, it seems one possibility offered is transformation by the Holy Spirit (or Holy Ghost).
From my own experience and considerations, I can see how people who have already felt violated or intruded upon during their life experiences could understandably be more resistant to such a transformation than either someone who has had more of an easy-going time in life OR someone who has become so ashamed of their past behavior that it tortures them to the extent that they are ready and willing to jettison their past, their tendencies, and even themselves in the hope of forgiveness, a purging, and a fresh start in the service of higher aims.
The reason I say that about people who have felt violated or intruded upon, is that transformation by the Holy Spirit might be seen as similar to demonic possession, except for the voluntary invitation. I imagine that even some of the most trusting believers might have some fear and trepidation before they work up the bravery, readiness, and willingness to invite the transformation -- because of the voluntary handing over of control to an unknowable and incomprehensibly greater spirit.
@Arkturos saidYour first paragraph refers; I agree, to truly believe that there is some higher entity will indeed require the believer to in a way disassociate from themselves, and to give themselves over, as it were, to said higher entity.
I gather that in some religious faiths and maybe in some magical systems one possible or maybe even primary avenue of spiritual development involves some kind of transformation or dissolution of the ego.
In the case of Christianity, it seems one possibility offered is transformation by the Holy Spirit (or Holy Ghost).
From my own experience and considerations, I can se ...[text shortened]... cause of the voluntary handing over of control to an unknowable and incomprehensibly greater spirit.
Your third paragraph refers. I agree that shame in or of oneself or ones' life might lead one to hand over responsibility, so to speak, in the hope of ultimate redemption. On the other hand adversity, abuse and so on might also lead a person to the belief that there is a better life hereafter, and that everything will work out okay in the end if I can only believe....
If we could lead our lives in a state of spiritual contentment, we probably wouldn't need our gods.
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@Indonesia-Phil saidSounds like a theme for a world-class novel, in any genre.
If we could lead our lives in a state of spiritual contentment, we probably wouldn't need our gods.
I remember that Pearl S. Buck once said that a time of lively conversation is a good time to write a novel. Too bad for us that we have so much clutter and distractions these days!
As for the "transformation" offered, even leaving aside the creepy (albeit well-intended?) manipulations of Christianity, I also don't think it's quite right to tell someone that their sense of self is an arbitrary fiction.
Now that I think of it, that seems like another way to control someone else by rejecting and dismissing whatever hard-won and particular sense of agency they might have acquired and assembled and cultivated for themselves -- transitory though it might be.
The Cosmic Intelligence already is as It is -- and who could say truly and conclusively that self-erasure is what That One intends?
Budded on Earth to sprout into blandeur?
Time enough to be gone when one is gone, I say. 😉
I also remember that the late novelist Pat Conroy once said: "Story is sacred." I don't know the backstory or context of his statement, but I think I kind of get it, and I do not disagree.
@Arkturos saidI disagree, I think we are created naturally with something inside of us built in that connects us with a pulling effect in this direction from birth. Life experiences, hardships or not, families, where we are born, naturally shape us but any particular one doesn’t have a more or less of a deciding factor in the choice of leaning into this pulling and letting it grow or not.
I gather that in some religious faiths and maybe in some magical systems one possible or maybe even primary avenue of spiritual development involves some kind of transformation or dissolution of the ego.
In the case of Christianity, it seems one possibility offered is transformation by the Holy Spirit (or Holy Ghost).
From my own experience and considerations, I can se ...[text shortened]... cause of the voluntary handing over of control to an unknowable and incomprehensibly greater spirit.
We are individuals with free will even when young, our decision making and understanding of life and it’s experiences along with how we deal with these things and make sense of them starts at a young age and grows and develops in either direction depending on our choices. Of course things can happen during life that can make someone jump track in either direction or not but I feel it’s still up to that individual and their free will to choose or not. God created us this way for a reason, to choose or not to choose and I feel he has his valid reasons as a creator that will someday be known to us.
@mike69 saidWell, it seems we disagree, but I'm glad you shared your POV.
I disagree, I think we are created naturally with something inside of us built in that connects us with a pulling effect in this direction from birth. Life experiences, hardships or not, families, where we are born, naturally shape us but any particular one doesn’t have a more or less of a deciding factor in the choice of leaning into this pulling and letting it grow or not. ...[text shortened]... or not to choose and I feel he has his valid reasons as a creator that will someday be known to us.
@Arkturos saidIt’s not an argument I’m just talking with you but I respect your choice. I had a difficult childhood, never really fit in anywhere or accepted except only here and there. I’ve never met met my biological father or anyone on that side and he wants nothing to do with after finding on ancestry a few years ago understandably. He was almost 20 a family friend and a grooming situation, my mother was 13 had me at 14. My step dad was a violent alcoholic that only thought a father was someone who provided money and didn’t know how to show love no matter how much I tried to earn it and was very strict and punishing because of his life choices. I didn’t grow up in church, we never went. From a young age I’ve always felt Gods presence and love despite this, I’m sorry for the things you went through and God loves you.
I decline to answer.
@mike69 saidThank you for sharing that and for your well wishes.
It’s not an argument I’m just talking with you but I respect your choice. I had a difficult childhood, never really fit in anywhere or accepted except only here and there. I’ve never met met my biological father or anyone on that side and he wants nothing to do with after finding on ancestry a few years ago understandably. He was almost 20 a family friend and a grooming sit ...[text shortened]... lt Gods presence and love despite this, I’m sorry for the things you went through and God loves you.
@Arkturos saidI think I take a 'harder line' on this than do you. Of course people are free to believe whatever nonsense they like, however if they see fit to splurge it out on a public forum, then I think its' fair game to ask them some simple questions regarding their beliefs, none of which have ever received a rational answer, because of course all religion is irrational. For example, to say "I believe my God made everything" is fine, and may not be challenged, to say "My God made everything" is not, and is open to questioning, the most obvious question being "How do you know?" to which of course there is no answer. It's the essential great intellectual divide between belief and non - belief, which can never be crossed.
Sounds like a theme for a world-class novel, in any genre.
I remember that Pearl S. Buck once said that a time of lively conversation is a good time to write a novel. Too bad for us that we have so much clutter and distractions these days!
As for the "transformation" offered, even leaving aside the creepy (albeit well-intended?) manipulations of Christianity, I also do ...[text shortened]... know the backstory or context of his statement, but I think I kind of get it, and I do not disagree.
Also, if religion were a benign or universally positive force, all would be well, but it clearly isn't, and will never be. So long as the ethos of "My prophet/god/gods is/are better than your prophet/god/gods" prevails, religion will ever be a divisive force, something which the catastrophic events currently unfolding in Gaza bears horrific witness. People aren't born Islamic or Jewish, it isn't something genetic or "in us" when we come screaming into the world, all religions are learned, and perpetuated only by learning.
Also and finally, religion can foster (and fester) archaic and wholly destructive beliefs such as that "homosexuality is a sin" because someone said so a few thousand years ago.
Enough said.
@Indonesia-Phil saidDo you feel you made an attempt here to fill the gap of this intellectual divide with intelligence and reasoning or to attack something you obviously don’t like, feel or understand from your own opinions and life? What parts of your statement wold be different if you were not spewing your nonsense and splurging it out on a public forum, showing yourself to be a non rational, logical person with a desire to understand and not hate.
I think I take a 'harder line' on this than do you. Of course people are free to believe whatever nonsense they like, however if they see fit to splurge it out on a public forum, then I think its' fair game to ask them some simple questions regarding their beliefs, none of which have ever received a rational answer, because of course all religion is irrational. For ex ...[text shortened]... ch as that "homosexuality is a sin" because someone said so a few thousand years ago.
Enough said.
@mike69 saidThere's no 'filling of the gap' in the intellectual divide, I thought I made that clear. What makes you think I don't 'understand' religion, I understand it perfectly well, nor do I 'like' or dislike it, I merely point out the effects of it, citing the example of that which is presently happening in Palestine, if you think what's happening there is a good thing then by all means say so. I don't really understand your next sentence, nor do I understand how you see me as non - rational and logical at the same time. The understanding thing we've already covered, and I don't know what it is that you think I hate.
Do you feel you made an attempt here to fill the gap of this intellectual divide with intelligence and reasoning or to attack something you obviously don’t like, feel or understand from your own opinions and life? What parts of your statement wold be different if you were not spewing your nonsense and splurging it out on a public forum, showing yourself to be a non rational, logical person with a desire to understand and not hate.
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@Indonesia-Phil saidI was using your words to show the rudeness of your post and distaste for the people and and our God and all this encompasses. You may understand structure, some history, names, stories, but you don’t understand the connection, the relationship that builds and grows. It’s not instant, God works in our lives in our hearts, trust and faith builds over time from within. Say a new babysitter watches your children, the first time they watch them you worry, have questions, faith is at a basic level. After a year or more of this and no problems faith in, trust builds and grows, a relationship to say builds and you get to know one another it’s the say way faith in God works, it builds your trust in. This is the part you don’t understand in making your comments. I’m sorry for the typo, and any here I hope it didn’t cause too many issues for you.
There's no 'filling of the gap' in the intellectual divide, I thought I made that clear. What makes you think I don't 'understand' religion, I understand it perfectly well, nor do I 'like' or dislike it, I merely point out the effects of it, citing the example of that which is presently happening in Palestine, if you think what's happening there is a good thing then by ...[text shortened]... e. The understanding thing we've already covered, and I don't know what it is that you think I hate.
