https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+9&version=NASB&interface=amp
God hated Esau before he was even born. I have heard people claim that this is due to God being outside of time and witnessed Esau so reacted to what God saw.
Paul says something totally different. According to Paul we are all just God's pawns.
Like a bug. They crawl in the tiny spaces. I went and tried to crush this one bug. Somewhat frightened at it moving I didn't find a papertowel in time. The bug was faster than me. It scuttled into the nearest safe place it could find. Underneath the cord housing from my charger mount. Beyond my reach I took a fork and tried to stab at it within the farthest cranny. And it evaded that too, scuttling back onto the counter. Waiting a moment to make a clear strike, I thought I'd have its death, when the bug went up into the faucet handle from a small opening by the seal. Again what's inconceivable on our scale becomes incredibly possible for that bug to find the safest hiding spot. I know the story doesn't relate to Job. But Job was just as incredible because while he fought for his life he would also accept his fate and trust were God to slay him.
@eladar saidSo, the Bible is inconsistent. Not surprising, given that it was written by an unknown number of people over many centuries. Then edited. Then redacted. Then translated. Don't try to take it literally; it wasn't meant to be. And don't over-think it; no one knows the mind of God.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+9&version=NASB&interface=amp
God hated Esau before he was even born. I have heard people claim that this is due to God being outside of time and witnessed Esau so reacted to what God saw.
Paul says something totally different. According to Paul we are all just God's pawns.
@moonbus saidBible is inconsistent when the ways of God are beyond our understanding? Ok, if you say so.
So, the Bible is inconsistent. Not surprising, given that it was written by an unknown number of people over many centuries. Then edited. Then redacted. Then translated. Don't try to take it literally; it wasn't meant to be. And don't over-think it; no one knows the mind of God.
I have never had an issue with double predestination.
@moonbus saidAnd then they say that "God never changes". I guess that's why the Bible says He was sorry for nearly eliminating humans in the Great Flood. People say a lot of stuff that they don't understand, about a God they don't understand.
So, the Bible is inconsistent. Not surprising, given that it was written by an unknown number of people over many centuries. Then edited. Then redacted. Then translated. Don't try to take it literally; it wasn't meant to be. And don't over-think it; no one knows the mind of God.
@eladar saidWell, you don't seem to have an issue with any of the abominable things you say, either.
Bible is inconsistent when the ways of God are beyond our understanding? Ok, if you say so.
I have never had an issue with double predestination.
In this, you're usually the only one.
@eladar saidThe God of the OT is an angry, wrathful God who is constantly testing the Israelites as a people and a nation. The ancient Israelites did not consistently believe in a life after death or an immortal soul; they were ancestor worshippers, they believed in posterity, in succeeding generations venerating the ancestors. That is why progeny was so important to them; the whole bit about Sarah bearing children so late in life etc. etc.
Paul is the one stating double predestination, not me.
Paul thought the end-times were within the lifetime of some of those who were present during the life of Jesus, so, for Paul, there will be no need for progeny, better to remain celibate. It's a totally different mind set, a totally different eschatology, artificially grafted onto the OT. Best not to conflate them.
There are two sorts of mysteries: objective ones and artificial ones.
How the universe got started, or whether it never got started but has existed eternally, is an objective mystery about the universe.
How God can know what a human with freewill will do or not do, believe or not believe, whether a human with freewill will ultimately be saved or damned (even before he is born, as in the case of Esau), is an artificial mystery, engendered by a paradoxical juxtaposition of two theological ideas, namely infinite mercy and infinite knowledge. You might as well ask what happens when an irresistible force meets an immovable object. The correct answer is: don't trouble yourself about such questions. It's an artificial mystery not worth the bother.
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The God of the OT is an angry, wrathful God who is constantly testing the Israelites as a people and a nation.
You are not touched at God's faithfulness to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph?
Do you see any mercy God had on other nations in books like Amos?
There are also 150 Psalms. Have you read any of those? Would you say in those 150 Psalms there is absolutely no patience, forebearance, mercy, forgiveness, and kindness in all those Psalms?
Even in the Genesis and Exodus and Deuteronomy there is love, kindness and mercy. Have you read Ruth. Have you read about Rehab the harlot and the mercy God showed to her? What about Esther?
Do you see no grace in any of the major prophets like Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel?
Have you read Song of Songs? I don't think you're taking enough of it in.
The ancient Israelites did not consistently believe in a life after death or an immortal soul; they were ancestor worshippers, they believed in posterity, in succeeding generations venerating the ancestors. That is why progeny was so important to them; the whole bit about Sarah bearing children so late in life etc. etc.
I think you are taking in a lot of biased propaganda.
Paul thought the end-times were within the lifetime of some of those who were present during the life of Jesus, so, for Paul, there will be no need for progeny, better to remain celibate. It's a totally different mind set, a totally different eschatology, artificially grafted onto the OT. Best not to conflate them.
Not necessarily at all. He HOPED for the Lord's eminent return. Like Peter he prepared his audience for the long distance run not the sprint. He ministered with the thought in mind that the torch would be carried on long after their life time.
What parted lovers do not long to be quickly re-united? In that sense what they HOPED was one thing. How the lived and prepared others to life was another.
You're being hyped with some crappy Internet infidels misinformation.
Elsewhere your summary of God's revelation amounts pretty much to - "The Bible
stinks so don't read it." At least you leave little to NO room for people to take the Bible in.
Is that why you come to the Spirituality Forum, to make sure no one takes the Holy Bible seriously? You drop in to make sure you have your say that the Bible is not worth anything?
I am glad I graduated from this nonsense skepticism and touched the reality of the living God.
There are two sorts of mysteries: objective ones and artificial ones.
How the universe got started, or whether it never got started but has existed eternally, is an objective mystery about the universe.
Of all the people in history, if one was a candidate to have been the Author of the universe WHO in human history do you think would most likely have been qualified to have been that person?
How God can know what a human with freewill will do or not do, believe or not believe, whether a human with freewill will ultimately be saved or damned (even before he is born, as in the case of Esau), is an artificial mystery, engendered by a paradoxical juxtaposition of two theological ideas, namely infinite mercy and infinite knowledge. You might as well ask what happens when an irresistible force meets an immovable object. The correct answer is: don't trouble yourself about such questions. It's an artificial mystery not worth the bother.
Translation: " Leave me alone. I like my life in sin as it is. "
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When you come to the Bible and notice things like what you would call predestination. The best thing to do is to USE it in prayer in faith in a positive way.
I am serious. Instead of trying to fathom the paradox between free-will and predestination - PRAY using predestination as a vehicle of faith to bring you closer to God.
I am serious. Here is a sample of what I mean in prayer.
Lord Jesus, You marked out my destiny to be forgiven. So Lord Jesus cleanse me from every sin. Lord Jesus you predestined me to bring me faultless into Your presence and glorify Your life in me. Lord according to Your plan fulfill Your work in me.
Lord Jesus, You know before I was born You knew me and predestinated me to by saved, sanctified, conformed into Your image. Oh dear Lord Thankyou for Your unspeakable gift. Let it be according to Your marking our of my destiny. Thankyou Lord Jesus.
Lord You predestinated me to be so loving and obedient to You, filled with Your wisdom and love. Lord Jesus work it out today according to your predestination."
Turn that predestination paradoxical mystery around and place it before God in faith. Use its truth to ask God to honor His plan of salvation.
I believe that God will honor that prayer.
So I advise any who are perplexed about predestination to locate God's promises and on faith apply your hope in His ability to carry them out for you in a positive manner.
I believe God honors that kind of loving trust.