1. Joined
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    14 Nov '13 21:541 edit
    http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/jail-jehovahs-witness-elder-jonathan-6258814

    A another Jehovah's Witness allegedly protected by the leadership from accusations of child abuse.
  2. Standard memberRemoved
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    14 Nov '13 22:00
    Originally posted by divegeester
    http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/jail-jehovahs-witness-elder-jonathan-6258814

    A another Jehovah's Witness allegedly protected by the leadership from accusations of child abuse.
    Anyone of any religious sect should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law for this type of crime.
  3. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    15 Nov '13 05:00
    Originally posted by divegeester
    http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/jail-jehovahs-witness-elder-jonathan-6258814

    A another Jehovah's Witness allegedly protected by the leadership from accusations of child abuse.
    Don't single out JWs.
    This happens in all groups.
    Not just religions.

    Twofold problem.
    1. We do not want to bring our group into disrepute. (SHAMEFUL)
    2. We cannot believe these accusations against our friend. (UNDERSTANDABLE)

    There has been a recent case of a Church Elder abusing children in NZ.

    http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/auckland/news/nbcri/1639063397-cyf-late-to-learn-of-daniel-taylor-s-offending

    Groups/sects/cliques/clubs call them what you want ... are potentially dangerous.

    Anything that breeds a strong camaraderie/trust can - and will - be abused by someone.

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  4. Joined
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    15 Nov '13 08:08
    Originally posted by divegeester
    http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/jail-jehovahs-witness-elder-jonathan-6258814

    A another Jehovah's Witness allegedly protected by the leadership from accusations of child abuse.
    they aren't protected by law you know. if they are caught they will be prosecuted.

    the problem is that it is hard to do that if nobody testifies, nobody accuses. that is the problem. what you are saying sounds like the police refuses to prosecute cult members.
  5. Cape Town
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    15 Nov '13 08:30
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    they aren't protected by law you know. if they are caught they will be prosecuted.

    the problem is that it is hard to do that if nobody testifies, nobody accuses. that is the problem. what you are saying sounds like the police refuses to prosecute cult members.
    He is not talking about the abusers themselves, obviously they can be prosecuted. He is talking about people who protect abusers.
    I think wolfgang59 is correct that we shouldn't focus on religious organizations, but rather have one rule for all.
    So, should anyone who is aware of someone else abusing a child be legally required to report it and if they do not, should they be punished in some way.
    Also if someone 'obstructs justice' but going further than simply not reporting it and attempts to actively cover it up should they be punished?
  6. Cape Town
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    15 Nov '13 08:31
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    Anything that breeds a strong camaraderie/trust can - and will - be abused by someone.

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    Dont forget the biggest one of all:
    FAMILY.
  7. Joined
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    15 Nov '13 08:57
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    He is not talking about the abusers themselves, obviously they can be prosecuted. He is talking about people who protect abusers.
    I think wolfgang59 is correct that we shouldn't focus on religious organizations, but rather have one rule for all.
    So, should anyone who is aware of someone else abusing a child be legally required to report it and if they ...[text shortened]... rther than simply not reporting it and attempts to actively cover it up should they be punished?
    they can be prosecuted as well as accomplices according to individual countries' laws.

    the problem is that nobody does their civic duties and reports them. this is true in other areas of society. mafia members again get away with crimes. this isn't because the law favors them, it is because people are scared to speak up against them and they slip through the cracks in the system. it is a problem with the people, not the system.

    "should anyone who is aware of someone else abusing a child be legally required to report it and if they do not, should they be punished in some way."
    i think this is tricky. if someone is aware a crime is being commited, any crime, he has the MORAL duty to report it. i don't think he can be legally coerced into coming forward on his own initiative.

    however, if he is directly questioned by the police, he is required by law (i haven't checked to be sure, but i believe there are laws about this) to speak the truth, if not he is considered to actively hamper the investigation.

    "if someone 'obstructs justice' but going further than simply not reporting it and attempts to actively cover it up should they be punished?"
    that is a textbook "accomplice". i don't believe there is a country that doesn't punish this. the problem is catching them with little to no evidence.
  8. Joined
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    15 Nov '13 09:03
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    Don't single out JWs.
    This happens in [b]all
    groups.
    Not just religions.

    Twofold problem.
    1. We do not want to bring our group into disrepute. (SHAMEFUL)
    2. We cannot believe these accusations against our friend. (UNDERSTANDABLE)

    There has been a recent case of a Church Elder abusing children in NZ.

    http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/auckland/ne ...[text shortened]... - and will - be abused by someone.

    ARMY
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    1. We do not want to bring our group into disrepute. (SHAMEFUL)

    yes, this is a problem. the obvious answer is that in a fair, just (and utopic) society the actions of an individual shouldn't reflect on the group. in our society (the real one) people are prejudiced against one group or another and allow those prejudices to be reinforced whenever someone of that group acts on those preformed opinions.


    a possible remedy to this is to acknowledge there is a problem within the organization, to appoint leaders with strong moral fiber that would encourage the people to change, to stand up for what is right.

    easier said than done to be honest.
  9. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    15 Nov '13 21:16
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    1. We do not want to bring our group into disrepute. (SHAMEFUL)

    yes, this is a problem. the obvious answer is that in a fair, just (and utopic) society the actions of an individual shouldn't reflect on the group. in our society (the real one) people are prejudiced against one group or another and allow those prejudices to be reinforced whenever someone o ...[text shortened]... age the people to change, to stand up for what is right.

    easier said than done to be honest.
    Yes you are quite right ... and we are all part of the problem.

    A cult member is committed of a child-sex offense and we condemn
    the cult making the cult more likely to cover up offences in future.
    It is self reinforcing; a positive feedback loop that we are all guilty of
    contributing to.
  10. Standard memberRJHinds
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    15 Nov '13 22:57
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    Don't single out JWs.
    This happens in [b]all
    groups.
    Not just religions.

    Twofold problem.
    1. We do not want to bring our group into disrepute. (SHAMEFUL)
    2. We cannot believe these accusations against our friend. (UNDERSTANDABLE)

    There has been a recent case of a Church Elder abusing children in NZ.

    http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/auckland/ne ...[text shortened]... - and will - be abused by someone.

    ARMY
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    GANGS[/b]
    How about RACE?

    The Instructor
  11. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    16 Nov '13 00:14
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    How about RACE?

    The Instructor
    I think that racial groups are too large for members to protect one of their
    own through fear of bring the whole race into disrepute. It could happen
    within a small enclave of immigrants living in a hostile country I guess ....

    Do you have something specific in mind?
  12. Joined
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    16 Nov '13 06:211 edit
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    Don't single out JWs...
    It can happen anywhere of course, but this is a spirituality forum so when it happens in religious groups it is of interest. There has been several threads in this forum about the topic of The Jehovah's Witness leadership allegedly protecting sex abusers within their congregations. As they set themselves up as being the only route to God and sole holders of God's revelled truth, I think the topic is worthy of continued exposure.
  13. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    16 Nov '13 08:15
    Originally posted by divegeester
    ... The Jehovah's Witness leadership allegedly protecting sex abusers within their congregations. As they set themselves up as being the only route to God and sole holders of God's revelled truth,...
    Don't all religious denominations set themselves up as such?

    And if you want to look at sex offenders within a cult look no
    further than the Catholic Church.
  14. Joined
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    16 Nov '13 08:26
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    Don't all religious denominations set themselves up as such?

    And if you want to look at sex offenders within a cult look no
    further than the Catholic Church.
    Morning Wolfie. No they don't, although some do. The huge majority of Christian churches will not require membership/affiliation as an entry point to salvation. However the Catholics do believe this but rarely mention it. I think Mormons do too.

    As for sex offences yes the Catholics are notorious but I hardly think the Jehovah's witnesses would look at them as a benchmark.
  15. Joined
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    16 Nov '13 19:59
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    they aren't protected by law you know. if they are caught they will be prosecuted.

    the problem is that it is hard to do that if nobody testifies, nobody accuses. that is the problem. what you are saying sounds like the police refuses to prosecute cult members.
    Sure they are not above the law, but the leadership allegedly protects them by not testifying. I think the JWs may have rules about "not testifying against a brother" but I'm not sue.
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