Something I want answered once and for all

Originally posted by RBHILL
some people in the middle east still live as they did 4000 years ago.

Wikipedia has a list of all 613 laws or just google them.

I hope you don't think I now know your answer to my question.

Originally posted by divegeester
Are you suggesting that God (Bible God) approves of same sex relationships and marriages?

Bump for Suzianne.

Originally posted by divegeester
Bump for Suzianne.

I am wondering who thumbed my post down.
If they are a Christian, do they think God would want people to be denied civility and equality?

Originally posted by divegeester
Are you suggesting that God (Bible God) approves of same sex relationships and marriages?

I'm not suggesting anything.

All the talk from the anti-gay crowd is this "biblical definition of marriage". A definition that I must have missed. I just wanted someone to point me to this so-called "biblical definition".

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I answered your question, yet you have nothing to say in reply?

Your answer to the question is a good one, but it still somewhat misses the mark. It sets out to show that the Bible sets a standard for marriage, and it achieves this well. I still don't see a "biblical definition" that so many anti-gays point to.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I believe that democracy should never be used when restricting rights. This is why a constitution is necessary as it overrides democratic decisions that affect peoples rights. Of course the problem remains as to where the constitution comes from.

But to give an example of a problem that I have issues with - immigration. In general, the citizens of a co ...[text shortened]... ven when they do so it a democratic way, I see that as discrimination and a violation of rights.

I personally cannot agree with you more.

Originally posted by JS357
Thanks. A follow-up: Is Mosaic Law Biblical, that is, is it God-given moral law that is fully applicable today? (I hope my terminology like "God-given" and "moral law" and "applicable" is OK, if not, please correct.)

Edit: this question is for anyone who wants to answer.

Mosaic Law is just that. Its application is limited to Jews. Yes, it's "biblical", yes, it's a God-given moral law. Fully applicable today? Not sure on this one, you'd probably be better off asking some Jews this question.

Originally posted by ChessPraxis
I am wondering who thumbed my post down.
If they are a Christian, do they think God would want people to be denied civility and equality?

It wasn't me. Let me ask you the same question Suzianne chose to sidestep:

Are you suggesting that God (Bible God) approves of same sex relationships and marriages?

Originally posted by twhitehead
But to give an example of a problem that I have issues with - immigration. In general, the citizens of a country make decisions about the non-citizens in that country and even when they do so it a democratic way, I see that as discrimination and a violation of rights.

How on earth can restricting access to your the border of your own country be a "violation of rights"?

Originally posted by divegeester
It wasn't me. Let me ask you the same question Suzianne chose to sidestep:

Are you suggesting that God (Bible God) approves of same sex relationships and marriages?

I can't speak for God. 😛
The issue is cloudy in my mind DG. On one hand the Old testiment view of homosexuality is a capital offence.
Jesus saved a woman from being stoned.
I only know that God instructed me to love my brother. If I deny my homosexual neighbor's rights, then I slam my own family too. I have a close relative(female) who is bi-sexual. I have several gay and lezbian cousins and even a transgender.

So I am opposed to the idea being a straight Christian male, but as a human being, I can not see alienating my fellow man from certain benefits that they would get if they were married or common law with the opposite gender.

I'd have to say I am not sure if God opposes the idea of a gay-lez-whatever marriage as much as I'd say he he not in favor of homosexuality in general. I sort of think God would want a gay person to have the same rights as others. But that is my thinking and not the LORDs. 🙂

It's interesting that everybody looks at this from the 'adult' point of view.
A large portion of same-sex marriages eventually adopt children.
What about those children's rights, and the suitability of 'ALL' same-sex marriages to become suitable, unbiased parents?

I am saying some same-sex parents, as they become (whether thru adoption or artificial insemination) parents indeed, are no doubt suitable for the role and task of unbiased parent hood. What about those that are not?

Yes, throw back at me the unsuitability of some 'normal' (inverted commas) parents and we then have a concept that in normal circumstances I would agree with. However, the emotional bonding of a naturally born child between 2 sex parents plays a crucial role. Is this bonding possible in same-sex parents, with adoption or artificial insemination? I do wonder if a child will grow up 'normal' (inverted commas, again) in a same-sex marriage, psychologically speaking that is?

-m. 😉

Originally posted by mikelom
It's interesting that everybody looks at this from the 'adult' point of view.
A large portion of same-sex marriages eventually adopt children.
What about those children's rights, and the suitability of 'ALL' same-sex marriages to become suitable, unbiased parents?

I am saying some same-sex parents, as they become (whether thru adoption or artificial ins ...[text shortened]... ted commas, again) in a same-sex marriage, psychologically speaking that is?

-m. 😉

Many "normal" couples are horrible parents also. Good and bad come in assorted faces. 🙂

Originally posted by twhitehead
I believe that democracy should never be used when restricting rights. This is why a constitution is necessary as it overrides democratic decisions that affect peoples rights. Of course the problem remains as to where the constitution comes from.

But to give an example of a problem that I have issues with - immigration. In general, the citizens of a co ...[text shortened]... ven when they do so it a democratic way, I see that as discrimination and a violation of rights.

Lets suppose for now that there is a world government and they control all immigration. Don't you think that government would have something to say if say, 100 million Chinese decided they wanted to immigrate to Panama? It seems to me there should be some kind of rules regarding immigration. Suppose under that world government 90% of Americans wanted to immigrate to Burmuda?

Do you think immigration should be just a free for all? Look at the boat people from Cuba, 1500 odd people, the majority of which were mental patients and hardened criminals, a way for the Cuban government to get rid of people they didn't want to have to deal with, foist them off to the USA?

Adults who care for and bond with children, encourage them to develop to the best of their ability, and protect them from harm until they are able to protect themselves, make responsible parents. What those adults do with the rest of their lives is irrelevant.

Originally posted by ChessPraxis
I can't speak for God. 😛
The issue is cloudy in my mind DG. On one hand the Old testiment view of homosexuality is a capital offence.
Jesus saved a woman from being stoned.
I only know that God instructed me to love my brother. If I deny my homosexual neighbor's rights, then I slam my own family too. I have a close relative(female) who is bi-sexual. gay person to have the same rights as others. But that is my thinking and not the LORDs. 🙂

There are a number of aspects of the same issue with this contentious topic.

1) It is completely clear in the Bible what God's view of same sex (sexual) relationships is.

2) There are indications it is not entirely clear on related questions such as monogamy - although one can draw strong inferences on God's preferred plan for partnership monogamy.

3) 'Human rights' are a secular humanistic construct and it is impossible to make religious stringencies apply where there is no obvious immediate moral benefit - i.e. why should a person not be afforded the same human rights as another because of their sexual orientation?

4) Jesus always, without exception, exemplified mercy triumphing over judgement; he would mix with and eat with 'sinners', readily forgave the repentant (much to the establishments indignation and rage) - but interestingly there are no examples of him dealing with the social or spiritual aspects of homosexuality.

5) The 'act' of homosexuality is clearly called out in both old and new testaments as a sin. So is sex before marriage and in most cases divorce - are we to deny divorcees equal rights in the secular world?

I view these issues not as a contradiction of logic with which we are forced acquiesce Biblical truth, but a simultaneous test of our trust in scripture and its application in a fallen secular world where the Church should be holding fast to the truth, and yet demonstrating God's love through mercy triumphing over judgment.

The successful balance of this apparent contradiction is what I believe characterised Solomon's reign through his gift of 'wisdom'.