Spirituality and Existentialism

Originally posted by LemonJello
[b]All I am saying is that we assign meaning to things.

No, that is not all you were saying. I like the way you cannot even keep track of your own claims. To jog your memory, what you stated was

In short, with such a worldview spirituality is simply trying to give meaning to that which has none. Spirituality is then reduced to creat further add that meaning, by its nature has real substance (again, [i]to someone that is).[/b]

There is no inconsistency with either of my statements. I said that we assign meaning to things in our lives whether you be a person of faith or not. This is but a truth. A second truth is that whether you be a person of faith or not you NEED to assign meaning to your life so as not to go mad.

So what is the difference between the two positions? The difference is that those of faith have been assigned meaning and value by their Creator. Therefore, whether or not you assign meaning to your life it has inherent meaning regardless. In comparison, those that are not of faith have meaning ONLY in their own sphere of existence. Thus, outside their world there is no real meaning. Meaning for those without faith is but an illusion as where Creation apart from God is the real illusion for those of faith.

Originally posted by whodey
There is no inconsistency with either of my statements. I said that we assign meaning to things in our lives whether you be a person of faith or not. This is but a truth. A second truth is that whether you be a person of faith or not you NEED to assign meaning to your life so as not to go mad.

So what is the difference between the two positions? The di ...[text shortened]... ith is but an illusion as where Creation apart from God is the real illusion for those of faith.

You sure must have a strange definition in mind for the word 'inherent'. Let's think about this for a second. Some external agent heteronomously assigns meaning and value to your life; ergo, your life has 'inherent' meaning. Is that how things work in bizarro world? Relatedly, epiphinehas has been trying to tell me that this is also the reason his meaning in life is 'objective'. Are you two neighbors, perchance, in bizarro world?

Originally posted by LemonJello
You sure must have a strange definition in mind for the word 'inherent'. Let's think about this for a second. Some external agent heteronomously assigns meaning and value to your life; ergo, your life has 'inherent' meaning. Is that how things work in bizarro world? Relatedly, epiphinehas has been trying to tell me that this is also the reason his meaning in life is 'objective'. Are you two neighbors, perchance, in bizarro world?

What I am saying is that if God is the source of creation, that creation has assigned value to that Creator. You obviously don't agree nor are you required to agree. However, if you are unable to assign meaning and value to your life you will be miserable because you were designed to have it.

Originally posted by whodey
What I am saying is that if God is the source of creation, that creation has assigned value to that Creator. You obviously don't agree nor are you required to agree. However, if you are unable to assign meaning and value to your life you will be miserable because you were designed to have it.

Okay, let me see if I understand the lecture material. Invisible man in the sky who dotes on and on about us = our lives have "real" meaning. No invisible man in the sky = no "real" meaning. It all makes perfect sense so far. 🙄

You stated before for those "not of faith" that "outside their world there is no real meaning". Supposing for the sake of discussion that this is true, those not of faith should care about that fact...why exactly? Won't it be sufficient consolation that inside their world there is real meaning? The existence of real meaning outside of my world nets me what exactly?

You also stated "those that are not of faith have meaning ONLY in their own sphere of existence." Well, where else should I want my meaning to be? Are you suggesting I can have meaning somewhere other than my own sphere of existence? How would that work?

Originally posted by whodey
In short, with such a worldview spirituality is simply trying to give meaning to that which has none. Spirituality is then reduced to creating an illusion so as to help one from going mad.

I do not see how can anyone jump to that conclusion. My particular sentence reg.Spiritual Fatigue was meant to reassure ua41 that disillusionment with life is one of the symptoms which one encounters on the way to Spiritual Realization of one's real Self and one need not get disheartened. Existentialism-if it is the way I think it is- is just a temporary Angst with life( hope I am correct in the use of this word Angst),if not a bogus pose !
There is a story in Indian Spiritual lore which I think you will enjoy:- An old and poor man was eking out his living by cutting trees in a forest and selling the wood etc.One day, being terribly fed up with his Life of struggle while carrying a heavy bundle of tree stumps on his shoulders and being hungry etc. he cried out " O God,please relieve me from this!" The God of Death appeared immediately before the old man and said to him "OK! let us go !" to which the old man thoroughly alarmed said " Sir,you have misunderstood me ! I was referring to my burden of wood and not of Life ! Please help me with this load of wood. " There is no person except for people bent on suicide who will be ready to give up their life howsoever bad it may be. How many suicides take place on our planet? far less than one percent I am sure.

Originally posted by LemonJello
Okay, let me see if I understand the lecture material. Invisible man in the sky who dotes on and on about us = our lives have "real" meaning. No invisible man in the sky = no "real" meaning. It all makes perfect sense so far. 🙄

You stated before for those "not of faith" that "outside their world there is no real meaning". Supposing for the sake o n have meaning somewhere other than my own sphere of existence? How would that work?

All I am saying is that if there is no Creator, then we wre not created with a purpose. Therefore, any purpose in life that we derive is created ONLY in our mind. We have no future other than nonexistence and a return to purposelessness (if that is a word).

I never said that you have to have faith in order to have meaning in your life. I am simply stating that everyone must create a purpose for their lives in order to remain sane. It's just how we are wired. (Not that anyone did the wiring) Therefore, be wise regarding what you base your life upon. Christ gave us a warming about this. He said not to build your life on sand if you don't want the foundation to shift beneath you. In other words, everything in life is fleeting......except a possible eternal God. Everything else is shifting sand.

As far as only having a sphere of existence in your own mind, that is true unless there is a God. However, if there is a God, he is the only thing that is real in an ever changing universe. If there is a God then we then have a purpose outside ourselves even though we may refuse the purpose for which we were created.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
I do not see how can anyone jump to that conclusion. My particular sentence reg.Spiritual Fatigue was meant to reassure ua41 that disillusionment with life is one of the symptoms which one encounters on the way to Spiritual Realization of one's real Self and one need not get disheartened. Existentialism-if it is the way I think it is- is just a temporary may be. How many suicides take place on our planet? far less than one percent I am sure.

To have no hope is to have given up on a purpose for life. It is then when we are faced with a life without future (often merely an illusion created in our minds) that one turns to suicide. I would call this illusion a suckers choice.

I would just add that those who do not build their lives on relationships, whether it be with your loved ones and/or your God, that life is not as fulfilling. That is because love created us and is what makes us tick. As the scriptures state, God is love.

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"Is there a place in the human mind for an approach and view toward life that is both spiritual and existential?"

No. At least I don't think so.


"Or are there incompatibilities?"

Does existence precede essence? Can we dismiss the cause of our existence and focus merely on existence?


"If there are, what do you think they are ...[text shortened]... e of mud one falls into by mere chance, and ends with no hope of redemption.

I think existential thought and spiritual truth are at variance with each other in that the one believes spiritual truth cannot be known and therefore not useful for living, while the other is at the heart of existence altogether, without which life is just a puddle of mud one falls into by mere chance, and ends with no hope of redemption.

I hope this bolding works to quote you.

I understood that Kierkegaard thought that the moral teachings of Christianity (the Sermon on the Mount, for example) were valuable even though he thought certain central elements of Christianity were beyond human comprehension. Maybe I need to review that. If what I understood about him is correct, does that change your opinion about the variance between the spiritual and existentialism?

I am not seeking a way to say existentialism can be spiritual, I'm just wanting to understand what people think about that. Why it can or can't be.

Originally posted by JS357
[b]I think existential thought and spiritual truth are at variance with each other in that the one believes spiritual truth cannot be known and therefore not useful for living, while the other is at the heart of existence altogether, without which life is just a puddle of mud one falls into by mere chance, and ends with no hope of redemption.

I hope thi ...[text shortened]... piritual, I'm just wanting to understand what people think about that. Why it can or can't be.[/b]

I'm not sure how existential thinking can help one live better. One can read the account of the sermon on the mount and follow its precepts, but the problem is, who can?

All the philosophizing in the world won't cure the deeper wound.

Spirituality, in the broader context, includes many things or "paths" that one can follow, but in the narrow sense of the "path" that Jesus spoke of, spirituality is dead without regeneration. Meaning, our spirit rejoined with the Spirit of God.

When that happens existentialism loses all meaning and purpose.

Originally posted by josephw
I'm not sure how existential thinking can help one live better. One can read the account of the sermon on the mount and follow its precepts, but the problem is, who can?

All the philosophizing in the world won't cure the deeper wound.

Spirituality, in the broader context, includes many things or "paths" that one can follow, but in the narrow sense of t ...[text shortened]... with the Spirit of God.

When that happens existentialism loses all meaning and purpose.

I'm not about to defend ex'ism.

What is the deeper wound, If I may ask?

Originally posted by JS357
It was Simone de Beauvoir. I suggest http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/existentialism/
particularly the 3rd and 4th paragraph.

Yes,I did have a look at the web page referred by you.Thanks ! I will react sometime later in detail. Today being Sunday with two active games going on plus a clean-up of the home in progress,abstract thinking is on the back-burner !

Originally posted by JS357
[b]I think existential thought and spiritual truth are at variance with each other in that the one believes spiritual truth cannot be known and therefore not useful for living, while the other is at the heart of existence altogether, without which life is just a puddle of mud one falls into by mere chance, and ends with no hope of redemption.

I'm not so sure. For example, love can be said to be the spiritual link to the existential world. After all, can love be measured scientifically? No. In fact, in and of itself it does not really exist other than to describe it as a complex set of chemical reactions in the brain. As a result, I think it would then be qualified as a spiritual phenomenon. It's what we need to survive and have fulfillment in our lives even though it does not really exist......

Originally posted by whodey
I'm not so sure. For example, love can be said to be the spiritual link to the existential world. After all, can love be measured scientifically? No. In fact, in and of itself it does not really exist other than to describe it as a complex set of chemical reactions in the brain. As a result, I think it would then be qualified as a spiritual phenomenon. ...[text shortened]... e need to survive and have fulfillment in our lives even though it does not really exist......

Unfortunately I did not succeed in indicating that the first paragraph in the post was a quote from josephw. I agree with the importance and spiritual nature of love.

Originally posted by JS357
I'm not about to defend ex'ism.

What is the deeper wound, If I may ask?

In a word, Sin. With a capital S.

Shall I clarify? Sin is the reason for why everything is wrong with man.

Please remember what it is we're talking about in our few posts as you consider this reply. Your original post asked the question whether existentialism and spirituality had, or has, a common link, or not. I suggested they do not on the grounds that they are diametrically opposed by virtue of their definitions and approach to life and living.

God is a Spirit. We, being created in the image and likeness of God, have a spirit as well. One that is specifically designed to be 'linked' with God's Spirit. I think it is reasonable to assume, that, if what I just said is true, and with the obvious flawed condition of man, we are separated from God spiritually by sin.

Sin is the culprit. The fly in the ointment. A poke in the eye with a sharp stick. God is Holy. Sin cannot be linked to God. Therefore we are, until regeneration takes place, spiritually dead to God.

No doubt you've heard all this before. But in keeping with the flow and progression of thought of our previous posts....

Originally posted by JS357
Is there a place in the human mind for an approach and view toward life that is both spiritual and existential? Or are there incompatibilities? If there are, what do you think they are? Are they due to differences between things that are not essential to either approach?

Thanks JS for a thought provoking post. Existentialism has vague edges to me, possibly because of the numerous differences in conception of it by those who have been labelled as such.
Paul Tillich, Protestant Christian Existentialist theologian, was a principle proponent of a Christian religious response to Existentialism.
Here is an excerpt from Wiki's entry on him:

"For Tillich, the existential questions of human existence are associated with the field of philosophy and, more specifically, ontology (the study of being). This is because, according to Tillich, a lifelong pursuit of philosophy reveals that the central question of every philosophical inquiry always comes back to the question of being, or what it means to be, to exist, to be a finite human being.[12] To be correlated with these questions are the theological answers, themselves derived from Christian revelation. The task of the philosopher primarily involves developing the questions, whereas the task of the theologian primarily involves developing the answers to these questions."

I do not share his ideas on "revelation", seeing it more existentially in all of life, rather than in a certain religious set of books alone. However I do like the idea of Existentialism as a large ontonlogical question, with differing answers depending on what philosophy or religion it is being responded from, including atheism, quite helpful.

I see elements of Buddhist Zen and Dzogchen philosophy, based as it is in a particular understanding of existence that involves "emptiness or "absence" of definition in a non-dualistic concept of the "Ground of Being" another answer to the questions and emotions and struggles of the inner man to questions of meanings of existence.

After reading up a bit again on existentialism, evoked by your post, I began to realize I am actually a brand of existentialist too, but not the despairing kind, full of ennui and meaninglessness usually portrayed (likely an inaccurate stereotype).

Thanks.