The Goal of Religion

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Spirituality

17 Oct '05 02:42

The Chess Express
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19 Oct '05 23:07
Originally posted by The Chess Express
Keep reading your scripture bro. It seems to be all you think you know.
The Chess Express
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19 Oct '05 23:152 edits
Originally posted by David C
Ever consider the idea that our 'basic human concepts' were in place before we decided to create 'god' to explain them? That the reason they crop up in many or all of the world's religions is that they are a condition of our conciousness instead of being divine in nature?
"Ever consider the idea that our 'basic human concepts' were in place before we decided to create 'god' to explain them?"

Yes, I believe God put them there to draw us to him.

"That the reason they crop up in many or all of the world's religions is that they are a condition of our conciousness instead of being divine in nature?"

A condition of our conciousness, but somehow having nothing to do with God...hmmm...I guess if you don't believe that humans have souls you could make that distinction. I believe that our soul is our consciousness, and so could only have been put there by God.

At least we both agree that people are created good (at least I think we do).
Peace. 🙂
The Chess Express
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20 Oct '05 08:14
Originally posted by The Chess Express
Keep reading your scripture bro. It seems to be all you think you know.
I apologize for this. Maybe you're right and I'm wrong.
David C
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20 Oct '05 12:06
Originally posted by The Chess Express
"Ever consider the idea that our 'basic human concepts' were in place before we decided to create 'god' to explain them?"

Yes, I believe God put them there to draw us to him.

"That the reason they crop up in many or all of the world's religions is that they are a condition of our conciousness instead of being divine in nature?"

A ...[text shortened]... God.

At least we both agree that people are created good (at least I think we do).
Peace. 🙂
Yes, I believe God put them there to draw us to him.

I think you missed my point entirely.

A condition of our conciousness, but somehow having nothing to do with God...hmmm...I guess if you don't believe that humans have souls you could make that distinction. I believe that our soul is our consciousness, and so could only have been put there by God.

Now I'm sure of it. Would you like me to rephrase my position, or would you rather keep your hands over your eyes chanting the lord's prayer?

At least we both agree that people are created good (at least I think we do).

I thought people were created with sin, and required forgiveness. Which is it?
The Chess Express
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20 Oct '05 13:03
Originally posted by David C
[b]Yes, I believe God put them there to draw us to him.

I think you missed my point entirely.

A condition of our conciousness, but somehow having nothing to do with God...hmmm...I guess if you don't believe that humans have souls you could make that distinction. I believe that our soul is our consciousness, and so could only have been put there ...[text shortened]... nk we do).

I thought people were created with sin, and required forgiveness. Which is it?[/b]
"I think you missed my point entirely."

I think you've missed mine. Focus on the words. Take it slow. God was around before humans were.

"I thought people were created with sin, and required forgiveness. Which is it?"

The good outweighs the bad. Don't confuse me with an orthodox Christian.
David C
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20 Oct '05 13:15
Originally posted by The Chess Express
I think you've missed mine. Focus on the words. Take it slow. God was around before humans were.

And I'm attempting to show you why I think this is incorrect. The 'human concepts' you described in your previous posts are inherent to our conciousness. Our conciousness is a result of the chemical and neurological functions of our brains. Man created god to explain what he could not. So, where do we go from here? Thumbwrestling?

The good outweighs the bad. Don't confuse me with an orthodox Christian

OK, I'll try to remember you're not a run-of-the-mill Christian guy. Do you believe Jesus died on the cross for your sins and was resurrected?
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20 Oct '05 14:461 edit
Originally posted by The Chess Express
Keep reading your scripture bro. It seems to be all you think you know.
I was trying to make a point. But I suppose you don't see it yet...😉

Matt 22:29
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
(KJV)
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20 Oct '05 18:13
You hit a very good point...and a very striking and astonishing point. Thats what Kabbalah teaches....that God is IN you. We are trainned to be aware of the divine spark that gives us life in us. We are taught how to see behind the physical curtains of the physical world and see the spiritual things that are moving behind it. That the physical is just a physical representation of the spiritual. That the physical is a cloak of the real. We are taught by the system that the physical is the real and the spiritual is the cloak! Thats backwards to us Kabbalist. I am a kabbalist Master. I studied three years to obtain it. And the truth is. Religion is just a vessel to get to God. There are domination religions...then there is one true religion that is founded on the functions of the universe. This is the only true religion. Its not about what church you attend....its what your church foundation is rooted in on the spiritual side....and most religions are grounded in fear and domination and mind control and slavery of the souls and lives of the members.....this is what i call a Dark Religion. Light religion can be practiced anywere....any time....any place...without bounds.

Master of Light
Kabbalist@gmail.com
The Chess Express
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20 Oct '05 19:58
Originally posted by David C
[b]I think you've missed mine. Focus on the words. Take it slow. God was around before humans were.

And I'm attempting to show you why I think this is incorrect. The 'human concepts' you described in your previous posts are inherent to our conciousness. Our conciousness is a result of the chemical and neurological functions of our brains. Man crea ...[text shortened]... he-mill Christian guy. Do you believe Jesus died on the cross for your sins and was resurrected?[/b]
"Our conciousness is a result of the chemical and neurological functions of our brains."

I guess it's just all a matter of what you choose to believe. I believe that God created people (as in neurons and such), and so the brain is just the part of the body that he made to house our consciousness. The scientific explanation that consciousness can be defined in terms of electrical impulses between neurons seems lacking to me. I don't consider myself and electrical discharge.

"Man created god to explain what he could not."

I guess this is a logical way for an atheist to explain it. I believe that God put the idea of himself in us. How did the first human come to think of God? An invisible being that is all powerful, and is everywhere in all of creation all of the time, hmmm. How did this idea get passed along to others if they were not predisposed to the concept? Seems like it would have been a pretty tuff sell. Again, it boils down to what you choose to believe.

Do you believe Jesus died on the cross for your sins and was resurrected.

I believe that Jesus performed the miracles descirbed in the Bible, and I believe that Jesus died for those who love him.
The Chess Express
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20 Oct '05 20:242 edits
Originally posted by checkbaiter
I was trying to make a point. But I suppose you don't see it yet...😉

Matt 22:29
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
(KJV)
Nice passage 🙂

It would be difficult to find God without the scriptures I agree. It was the Bible that got me into God, but the scripture only takes us so far. As you pointed out you've been studying the scripture for 30+ years now and still don't really know it. You interpret it in your way and other people interpret it in their way. Even if you knew the scripture completely and accurately, it would still not explain God. The scripture says this itself.

Rom 11:33 "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!"

Isa 55:8-9 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

So how does the scripture say that we may find God?

Jer 29:13 "And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart."

Luke 17:21 "Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."

This is how I believe we are to search for God. By making a spiritual effort and looking within ourselves. 😉
The Chess Express
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20 Oct '05 20:311 edit
Originally posted by Master Of Light
You hit a very good point...and a very striking and astonishing point. Thats what Kabbalah teaches....that God is IN you. We are trainned to be aware of the divine spark that gives us life in us. We are taught how to see behind the physical curtains of the physical world and see the spiritual things that are moving behind it. That the physical is jus ...[text shortened]... Master of Light
Kabbalist@gmail.com
I share many of your views. In fact, I'm hard pressed to find one that I disagree with.

I seem to recall a Kabbalist thread. I'll check it out. Thanks for your post.
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20 Oct '05 21:422 edits
Originally posted by The Chess Express
Nice passage 🙂

It would be difficult to find God without the scriptures I agree. It was the Bible that got me into God, but the scripture only takes us so far. As you pointed out you've been studying the scripture for 30+ years now and still don't really know it. You interpret it in your way and other people interpret it in their way. Even if ...[text shortened]... believe we are to search for God. By making a spiritual effort and looking within ourselves. 😉
It would be difficult to find God without the scriptures I agree. It was the Bible that got me into God, but the scripture only takes us so far. As you pointed out you've been studying the scripture for 30+ years now and still don't really know it.

No one will ever "fully" understand the scriptures nor God. I think what you are really saying by "experiencing" God is actually "seeing" Him work in your life. Look, my good friend 'John"(not his real name) has been a model Pastor of a church in Chicago. I have known him for 35 years and have a healthy respect for him. ie., the way he carries himself, loves people, diligence in searching the scriptures, not to mention the sound and inspiring teachings.He also practises what he preaches, walks the talk,etc. He once told me ..."in 30 years, he has only heard a "voice" (revelation from God/Jesus) twice. Once when he prayed fervently on whether to start this church, and the other time was when he ministered to someone with an evil spirit. I won't go into details.
But the point is, everything we need in this life is found in the bible. We need to read it daily.

Jer 9:23-24
23 Thus says the LORD: "Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, let not the mighty man glory in his might, nor let the rich man glory in his riches;
24 But let him who glories glory in this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am the LORD, exercising lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness in the earth. For in these I delight," says the LORD.
(NKJ)

We find these things in His word.

Luke 24:32
32 And they said to one another, "Did not our heart burn within us while He talked with us on the road, and while He opened the Scriptures to us?"
(NKJ)

We need to pray for understanding as we read or have someone who is "skilled" in the scriptures teach us.
Even this is not an exuse to stop reading scripture....just as you need physical food you will need "spiritual" food. Sure prayer will help, so will lisstening to a good preacher, but nothing will replace reading the scriptures yourself and having Jesus "expound" what you read.

Deut 8:3
3 "So He humbled you, allowed you to hunger, and fed you with manna which you did not know nor did your fathers know, that He might make you know that man shall not live by bread alone; but man lives by every word that proceeds from the mouth of the LORD.
(NKJ)

🙂

Edit..just as you would not ask someone to chew your food for you so you could eat it, so it is with scripture, read it, meditate on it, taste it, eat it...yourself. If you have not "experienced" God in the scriptures, then something is wrong...either you are not believing what you read, you are not praying over it(asking for understanding), or you are not "waiting" on the Lord.
BTW...the kingdom of God within you is also translated "among" you.
Edit2...another verse came to mind...

Acts 8:30-31
30 So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said, "Do you understand what you are reading?"
31 And he said, "How can I, unless someone guides me?" And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him.
(NKJ)

Acts 8:32-35
32 The place in the Scripture which he read was this: "He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and as a lamb before its shearer is silent, so He opened not His mouth.
33 In His humiliation His justice was taken away, and who will declare His generation? For His life is taken from the earth."
34 So the eunuch answered Philip and said, "I ask you, of whom does the prophet say this, of himself or of some other man?"
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him.
(NKJ)
will123
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21 Oct '05 16:46
well what you dont understand is that church is not a place were you can be saved it is a gathering
it says in mathew -that were one or more are gathered in my name there am i with them and it also says that is any of you agree on some thing and ask for it in my name it will be granted
so you see preachers are guides to help you find faith that is whats inside of you and church is a place to gather to help one another in that faith and scriptures are ways of god telling us were to look to find faith and how people of god sould live their life
The Chess Express
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22 Oct '05 20:251 edit
Originally posted by will123
well what you dont understand is that church is not a place were you can be saved it is a gathering
it says in mathew -that were one or more are gathered in my name there am i with them and it also says that is any of you agree on some thing and ask for it in my name it will be granted
so you see preachers are guides to help you find faith that is whats ...[text shortened]... re ways of god telling us were to look to find faith and how people of god sould live their life
well what you dont understand is that church is not a place were you can be saved it is a gathering

This was the point of my original post. You may recall:

"The goal of religion therefore would not be to define God accurately, or to require a person to study reams of scripture all their life, but to instill in people the desire to find God within themselves."

“Luke 17:21 "...for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."

It is this inner relationship that is necessary to find God. As it was the Bible that originally got me into God, I do think that the scripture is important in this way.

so you see preachers are guides…

This is where it gets confusing. Preachers interpret the scripture in their own way (human), and often times will try to get people to see things only their way, and so we have hundreds of different kinds of Christianity. Most denominations reject the majority of the other denominations. Everybody likes to believe that they have found the truth and the others are wrong. This is not really the type of guidance that we need. It is necassary to find the truth within ourselves. If the preacher understands this as some do, then yes, he can help us along.

…scriptures are ways of god telling us were to look to find faith and how people of god sould live their life

I agree. The scriptures tell us to look within ourselves and also provide guidelines for us to live by.

it says in mathew -that were one or more are gathered in my name there am i with them and it also says that is any of you agree on some thing and ask for it in my name it will be granted…church is a place to gather to help one another in that faith…

If this is what we can get out of the church, then I agree, we should go. Some churches focus on the internal rather than the external (and of coarse these are rejected by the external churches). It’s great to have like minded friends. Such friends can give us strength and help us through the hard times. I’m not suggesting that we find some cave and become a hermit, just that we shouldn’t get to caught up in the politics and rhetoric that people sometimes bring. Again, it’s our inner relationship with God, that cannot be defined by any person or scripture, that we should stay focused on.

I recommend you take a glance at my “Grace vs. Self Effort” thread. Checkbaiter and I briefly discuss this.

Peace and God bless.
The Chess Express
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24 Oct '05 07:31
Originally posted by David C
Ever consider the idea that our 'basic human concepts' were in place before we decided to create 'god' to explain them? That the reason they crop up in many or all of the world's religions is that they are a condition of our conciousness instead of being divine in nature?
For those who believe there is a place in scripture that addresses this:

Psalm 33:13-15 “The Lord looketh from heaven; he beholdeth all the sons of men. From the place of his habitation he looketh upon all the inhabitants of the earth. He fashioned their hearts alike; he considereth all there works.”

This passage refers to the basic human concepts that God put in all of us. These are the foundations of all the world’s religions. I could also use the last part of this passage in my “Grace vs. Self-Effort thread”, hmmm.