1. Gangster Land
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    18 Apr '05 18:52
    I address this to my fellow Christians.

    We speak so eloquently about faith. Faith, the lifeblood of our religion, and the road that leads to salvation. It is such a simple principle, beautiful in its simplicity, really. Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ (with little or no tangible evidence to encourage you) and you shall be saved…isn’t that how it goes? So why do we waste so much energy on trying to convince people of the validity of the Bible? It seems “go out and preach the gospel” has turned into go out and make the Bible sound reasonable. We have faith, what do we need with debate? For that matter, what do we need with reasonableness?

    When trying to encourage people to experience their own faith in Christ; I am of the opinion that the Bible is not our best sales technique. If you really read the thing you must admit it is pretty wacky, especially the Old Testament. It is full of instances where God goes on murder sprees and insists his subjects perform all manner of tests of faith; the likes of which Jesus himself refused to do when being tempted by the devil. It is a confusing book, written by clearly fallible men who had no more ability to see beyond their own place in history than the rest of us. It was written for a certain group of people for a certain time and as such is not always applicable to our lives today. It does not paint a very clear picture of God’s love. It is ok to admit these things. Faith in the Bible is not a requirement to experience a relationship with God.

    I realize it is exceedingly tempting to use the Bible as a rule book which we can refer to when rebuking sinners, cheaters and heathens of all kinds. However, we are not judges and the Bible is not our reference material for sentencing. I promise God will work out all the judging. In the mean time we are free to concentrate on our own relationship with God and try to use our lives to inspire others to get to know God. When we do this, I think we will find no time left to pass judgment on whatever anyone else is doing.

    When we place our faith on the Bible instead of where it belongs (on God) we find ourselves in unfortunate situations. In Genesis, for instance, we have a very shaky description of how the world/universe came into being and based on that we have decided to extrapolate an entire pseudo-scientific theory to counter evolution. Why? We have faith. All we need believe is that one way or another God is responsible for our existence, the details are supremely unimportant. What happens if at some point evolution gets a scientific bump and is proven to have occurred (as if it hasn’t been already). What do we do then? We will have to eat our words and it will be exactly what we deserve for putting the Bible before God.

    We are our own best sales pitch for Christ. We do not need to prove what is written in the Bible. All we need to do is live lives in which our experiences with God are evident. Those of you who have experienced God know that once it happens you do not go on with business as usual. It is a fundamental life changing experience and that moment, that change…that light turned on in your brain is what we need to show people. Not the 4th verse of the 3rd chapter of 2nd Timothy. Are you catching my drift?

    Does anyone else see the irony in how we have allowed the Bible to ‘hide our light’, so to speak? After putting away the golden calves and the sun god’s we have fallen victim to a false idol once again…the Bible.

    Before you all go crying to your priests, or what not, please read on.

    I’m not saying that Bible is evil or against God. I’m not saying the Bible is not a valuable book, indeed I’m not sure a more valuable book exists. What I’m saying is, it is NOT deserving of our faith. It is not a valuable tool in showing people Christ’s love. As I’m sure many of you know the most obvious examples of Christ’s love are the lives he has touched…yours and mine. The Bible has many great truths in it, many passages I can, and do, apply to my daily life. It is not without value, but if we do not keep it in perspective it casts shadows around our light. It gets in God’s way.

    I wish I had better writing skills so that what I’m typing could be understood more easily. Suffice to say, I’m not attacking anyone. I just see what seems to be a problem and I thought someone may find some truth in my ideas. Good luck and God bless!

    TheSkipper
  2. Standard memberColetti
    W.P. Extraordinaire
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    18 Apr '05 19:29
    Originally posted by TheSkipper
    I address this to my fellow Christians.

    We speak so eloquently about faith. Faith, the lifeblood of our religion, and the road that leads to salvation. It is such a simple principle, beautiful in its simplicity, really. Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ (with little or no tangible evidence to encourage you) and you shall be saved…isn’t that how it go ...[text shortened]... m and I thought someone may find some truth in my ideas. Good luck and God bless!

    TheSkipper
    You are describing a belief system the can enclose any view - even the rejection of Christ. You proposed system can not define God, knowledge, truth, justice, salvation, etc. without contradiction. Without the axiom of scripture, the is no Christianity. It becomes a new-age feel-good why-ask-why world view.

    I don't see how you can begin to define your terms in any objective way if you reject the only objective knowledge of God the Christian has, the Bible.

    You man not like what it has to say, but that has no bearing on the truth.
  3. Joined
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    18 Apr '05 19:31
    Originally posted by TheSkipper
    I address this to my fellow Christians.

    We speak so eloquently about faith. Faith, the lifeblood of our religion, and the road that leads to salvation. It is such a simple principle, beautiful in its simplicity, really. Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ (with little or no tangible evidence to encourage you) and you shall be saved…isn’t that how it go ...[text shortened]... m and I thought someone may find some truth in my ideas. Good luck and God bless!

    TheSkipper
    I disagree, as a student pilot, I know that when you dont look at your instruments when you fly in fog, it takes about 30 sec to be in a steep bank, if you fly on what "feels" to be level, and about 2 min to dive in the ground, if you fly what feels to be correct. same with the Bible, you live your life what feels is good, one will head toward destruction, we need the Bible as a reference, otherwise everyone will stray

    Ben
  4. Felicific Forest
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    18 Apr '05 19:552 edits
    Originally posted by TheSkipper
    I address this to my fellow Christians.

    We speak so eloquently about faith. Faith, the lifeblood of our religion, and the road that leads to salvation. It is such a simple principle, beautiful in its simplicity, really. Believe in ...[text shortened]... nd some truth in my ideas. Good luck and God bless!

    TheSkipper
    When did you read the handbook of modernism, TheSkipper ?

    For a absolutely necessary dose of antidote please read:

    PASCENDI DOMINICI GREGIS

    ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS X
    ON THE DOCTRINES
    OF THE MODERNISTS.



    WARNING: THIS IS NOT FOR THE FAINT HEARTED OR THOSE LOOKING FOR AN EASY READ.

    If you really want to study this encyclical you need a couple of months and some guidance in understanding this tough document (I'm sure you can find the necessary guidance on the internet), but it is certainly worth while in the context of studying modernism and the stance the Roman Catholic Church took and takes regarding this important issue.


    http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_x/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-x_enc_19070908_pascendi-dominici-gregis_en.html



  5. Gangster Land
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    18 Apr '05 20:20
    Originally posted by Coletti
    You are describing a belief system the can enclose any view - even the rejection of Christ. You proposed system can not define God, knowledge, truth, justice, salvation, etc. without contradiction. Without the axiom of scripture, the is no Christianity. It becomes a new-age feel-good why-ask-why world view.

    I don't see how you can begin to define yo ...[text shortened]... as, the Bible.

    You man not like what it has to say, but that has no bearing on the truth.
    Unless my written communication skills are far less developed than I thought, I do not believe I was encouraging a complete rejection of the Bible. All I'm saying is that we may be taking it a bit too seriously. I think we sometimes get so caught up in the rules that we turn many many people off to the message.

    Seeing as how we, as Christians, cannot seem to decide even something as simple as how to intrepret the book perhaps it is not the wisest idea to read it as if it has all the answers. Not to say it does not have all the answers but we do not seem to have the ability to glean them from the text. In spite of what seems to be a great lack of understanding of the Bible we seem to insist that we know God's stance on issues such as abortion, capital punishment, war etc. The way we use the Bible makes us look like idiots and it seems so unnecessary to me.

    I just have this supiscion that we use the Bible as an entrance exam, as if God is some sort of ivy league college and we are the acceptance board using archaic and sometimes incomprehensible standards from hundereds of years ago to decide whom may enter.

    I think our desire to be part of some elite religious club has caused many of us to use the Bible for a purpose it was never intended.

    I agree; whether I like what the Bible says or not has no bearing on what is truth. My question, however, remains. Who gets to decide what the Bible says?

    TheSkipper
  6. Gangster Land
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    18 Apr '05 20:25
    Originally posted by flyUnity
    I disagree, as a student pilot, I know that when you dont look at your instruments when you fly in fog, it takes about 30 sec to be in a steep bank, if you fly on what "feels" to be level, and about 2 min to dive in the ground, if you fly what feels to be correct. same with the Bible, you live your life what feels is good, one will head toward destruction, we need the Bible as a reference, otherwise everyone will stray

    Ben
    I'm not suggesting you discontinue use of the Bible. I'm simply suggesting that until we can come up with a uniform way to intrepret the Bible...well...you read your instruments and I will read mine, to borrow your analogy.

    I'm just saying, if we want to attract other people to Christ, we should put our best foot forward and the Bible is not it. Or to use your example...

    When trying to convince someone to fly in your plane I would imagine the first words out of your mouth are NOT "Sometimes I fly the plane by looking only at my instruments."

    TheSkipper
  7. Joined
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    18 Apr '05 20:581 edit
    Originally posted by TheSkipper
    I'm not suggesting you discontinue use of the Bible. I'm simply suggesting that until we can come up with a uniform way to intrepret the Bible...well...you read your instruments and I will read mine, to borrow your analogy.

    I'm ju ...[text shortened]... fly the plane by looking only at my instruments."

    TheSkipper
    ahh, I see your point, and sortve agree with you, But still the Bible for christians should be the foundations for us christians
  8. Gangster Land
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    18 Apr '05 21:09
    Originally posted by flyUnity
    ahh, I see your point, and sortve agree with you, But still the Bible for christians should be the foundations for us christians
    Yeah, I know. This is a problem in and of itself, however. See the "Genesis 19" thread for a debate on just which 'interpretation' of the Bible we should use for that foundation.

    TheSkipper
  9. R.I.P.
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    18 Apr '05 21:26
    Originally posted by TheSkipper
    I address this to my fellow Christians.

    We speak so eloquently about faith. Faith, the lifeblood of our religion, and the road that leads to salvation. It is such a simple principle, beautiful in its simplicity, really. Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ (with little or no tangible evidence to encourage you) and you shall be saved…isn’t th ...[text shortened]... m and I thought someone may find some truth in my ideas. Good luck and God bless!

    TheSkipper
    Ahhhhh a welcome breath of fresh air, I'd rec you, if i could🙂
  10. Standard memberOmnislash
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    19 Apr '05 01:13
    I think I understand what you are trying to say here. The scriptures are not the whole of God, but rather the beginning of his relationship with man.

    I think it is healthy to put it in perspective. It is easy for a believer to place all of his eggs in this one basked (so to speak). I think it is important to remember that the people in the Bible did not have the Bible themselves. It was simply them and God, trying to connect. Thusly we can, and should, call the Bible what it is: a tool to help us connect with God today by learning about his relationships with us in the past.

    I do not mean to infer that this understanding should in any way diminsh the truth that is to be found in the scriptures. The very existence of the scriptures, by virtue, is throught the direct interaction of God through the ages. It was his intent that we receive this tool. It is his desire that we know him, personally, with an understanding of what he has done in the past.
  11. Felicific Forest
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    19 Apr '05 02:441 edit
    Originally posted by TheSkipper
    I address this to my fellow Christians.

    We speak so eloquently about faith. Faith, the lifeblood of our religion, and the road that leads to salvation. It is such a simple principle, beautiful in its simplicity, really. Believe in ...[text shortened]... nd some truth in my ideas. Good luck and God bless!

    TheSkipper
    If you're trying to communicate that people should not use the Bible to win a chimp fight, then you are absolutely right. Endlessly bickering about the interpretation of certain Bible passages never appealed to me. There are people who know Bible texts by heart. I don't. It helps me in not throwing bible texts around like some people throw pies at their opponents.

    However it still is very fruitful to read "Pascendi Dominici Gregis". It will not only deepen your understanding of what constitutes "modernism" but it also will strengten your character, because you'll need an iron will to read it through till the end.
  12. Donationbbarr
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    19 Apr '05 02:48
    Originally posted by ivanhoe
    However it still is very fruitful to read "Pascendi Dominici Gregis",...it also will strengten your character, because you'll need an iron will to read it through till the end.
    lol. That's exactly how I feel about Kant! 😉
  13. Felicific Forest
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    19 Apr '05 03:041 edit
    Originally posted by bbarr
    lol. That's exactly how I feel about Kant! 😉
    Have you ever tried to read Ernst Bloch in German ?

    Das Prinzip Hoffnung ? or "Subject-Object" ?

    That will strengten your character beyond the character of Nietsches Übermensch ..... guaranteed. I cannot recommend it though ..... I strongly oppose mental torture.
  14. Donationbbarr
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    19 Apr '05 03:09
    Originally posted by ivanhoe
    Have you ever tried to read Ernst Bloch in German ?

    Das Prinzip Hoffnung ? or "Subject-Object" ?

    That will strengten your character beyond the character of Nietsches Übermensch ..... guaranteed. I cannot recommend it though ..... I strongly oppose mental torture.
    I tried reading Descartes in French, and he was still wonderful (though it went very slowly indeed). I thought Marx was bad enough in English, I'm not about to pick start reading a Marxist in German! I also firmly oppose the torturing of others, which is why I don't write nearly as much as I could.
  15. Felicific Forest
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    19 Apr '05 03:22
    Originally posted by bbarr
    I tried reading Descartes in French, and he was still wonderful (though it went very slowly indeed). I thought Marx was bad enough in English, I'm not about to pick start reading a Marxist in German! I also firmly oppose the torturing of others, which is why I don't write nearly as much as I could.

    We need more philosophers like you 😉
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