1. Joined
    15 Oct '06
    Moves
    10115
    22 Jun '17 11:444 edits
    Seems that many Christians believe that salvation cannot be "earned" through an individual's "own efforts".

    Many also believe that salvation is granted only to those who believe in the "atoning sacrifice" of Jesus. That those who do not believe in the "atoning sacrifice" of Jesus are not granted salvation.

    This leaves not believing in the "atoning sacrifice" of Jesus as the only sin that God cannot forgive.

    This leaves some questions.

    If salvation cannot be "earned" through an individual's "own efforts", then where does belief in the "atoning sacrifice" of Jesus come from?

    If it comes from God, how does it make sense that God cannot forgive those for whom God did not give this belief?

    If it does not come from God, but from the individual. How does it make sense that it is not from the individual's "own efforts"?

    If God is a just God, how does it make sense that this is the dividing line between being granted or not being granted salvation? From being granted "eternal life"?

    For those who believe in "eternal suffering", how is this not a complete and utter perversion of justice?
  2. SubscriberFMF
    Main Poster
    This Thread
    Joined
    28 Oct '05
    Moves
    29835
    22 Jun '17 11:51
    Mark 3:28-29 lays out a "sin" that cannot be forgiven.
  3. Joined
    15 Oct '06
    Moves
    10115
    22 Jun '17 11:561 edit
    Originally posted by FMF
    Mark 3:28-29 lays out a "sin" that cannot be forgiven.
    That begs another question.

    If the dividing line between being granted or not being granted salvation is whether or not an individual believes in the "atoning sacrifice" of Jesus, then what to make of the words of Jesus in the verses you cite?
  4. Standard membersonship
    the corrected one.
    Joined
    03 Jan '13
    Moves
    8660
    22 Jun '17 12:051 edit
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    Seems that many Christians believe that salvation cannot be "earned" through an individual's "own efforts".

    Many also believe that salvation is granted only to those who believe in the "atoning sacrifice" of Jesus. That those who do not believe in the "atoning sacrifice" of Jesus are not granted salvation.

    This leaves not believing in the "atoning ...[text shortened]... who believe in "eternal suffering", how is this not a complete and utter perversion of justice?
    Many also believe that salvation is granted only to those who believe in the "atoning sacrifice" of Jesus. That those who do not believe in the "atoning sacrifice" of Jesus are not granted salvation.


    The passage below says that if we believe Jesus is Lord and that God has raised Him from the dead we shall be saved.

    If you confess Jesus as your Lord, the work of Christ whether atoning sacrifice or whatever else COMES WITH the Lord Jesus.

    The passage doesn't even say one has to be well versed in the atoning sacrifice, (though it is well that one is knowledgeable). However the saving is done by a living Person. And if you are transferred into that Person all His finished work of redemption comes WITH Him whether you are knowledgeable or not about it.

    " That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

    For with the heart there is believing unto righteousness, and with the mouth there is confession unto salvation." ( Rom. 10:9,10)


    Since Jesus is alive, to confess the Lord Jesus and "Jesus is Lord" will bring Him to you with all of His finished work of redemption.

    It should be obvious that one believes that Jesus the Lord is alive from the dead or one would not confess Him as their Lord.
  5. Standard membersonship
    the corrected one.
    Joined
    03 Jan '13
    Moves
    8660
    22 Jun '17 12:07
    What I have written here above is not an encouragement to NOT study the New Testament and find out all about the Gospel. It is simply pointing out that it is the living Lord Jesus Who is alive that does the saving.

    If you get on a jumbo jet leaving from New York to travel to Los Angeles you may or may not understand much about that jet. But if you are ON the jet your destination and destiny is secure regardless.

    If you confess the resurrected Jesus Christ as your Lord, you will be atoned for. You will be saved. If you believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead and own Him as your Lord, all that pertains to Him will be yours.
  6. Standard membersonship
    the corrected one.
    Joined
    03 Jan '13
    Moves
    8660
    22 Jun '17 12:141 edit
    It is very customary that some wavering skeptics think that to be a Christian is mainly to mentally agree with some concepts.

    Salvation is about owning a living Person - the risen Lord Jesus. In the Person of the living Jesus is all the matters of salvation.

    The hard part for them is to bring themselves under the living Person of the resurrected Lord Jesus. So their matters are often couched in many arguments about thoughts, doctrines, concepts, rather than the living Person of Jesus Christ.

    " That if you confess with our mouth Jesus as Lord ..."


    Something so simple is so hard for some people to do.

    "That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."


    Behind the powerful name of "Lord Jesus" is the Person of the Holy Spirit Who will faithfully bring the Lord Jesus God-man, into your being.

    Nobody imagined up this tremendous matter. Neither Peter nor Paul nor Luther nor Calvin nor any other human being could concoct such a salvation.

    " For with the heart there is believing unto righteousness, and with the mouth there is confession unto salvation."
  7. Standard memberRajk999
    Enjoying
    On the Beach
    Joined
    04 Apr '04
    Moves
    170571
    22 Jun '17 12:15
    Originally posted by sonship
    What I have written here above is not an encouragement to NOT study the New Testament and find out all about the Gospel. It is simply pointing out that it is the living [b]Lord Jesus Who is alive that does the saving.

    If you get on a jumbo jet leaving from New York to travel to Los Angeles you may or may not understand much about that jet. But if ...[text shortened]... d has raised Him from the dead and own Him as your Lord, all that pertains to Him will be yours.[/b]
    Thats the doctrine of simpletons. Paul had a lot more to say than that. I would be worth your while to read it carefully. For himself Paul said that in spite of his faith, he still needed to maintain control over himself because otherwise he can be castaway. Maybe you should adopt the same attitude, otherwise your complacency can lead you to damnation.
  8. Joined
    15 Oct '06
    Moves
    10115
    22 Jun '17 12:16
    Originally posted by sonship
    Many also believe that salvation is granted only to those who believe in the "atoning sacrifice" of Jesus. That those who do not believe in the "atoning sacrifice" of Jesus are not granted salvation.


    The passage below says that if we believe Jesus is Lord and that God has raised Him from the dead we shall be saved.

    If you confess Jesu ...[text shortened]... believes that Jesus the Lord is alive from the dead or one would not confess Him as their Lord.
    As best as I can piece together, you believe the dividing line is whether or not an individual believes and confesses "Jesus is Lord and that God has raised Him from the dead".

    Do I understand you correctly?
  9. Standard membersonship
    the corrected one.
    Joined
    03 Jan '13
    Moves
    8660
    22 Jun '17 12:241 edit
    In the Old Testament picture in Exodus God told the Israelites - "When I see the blood I will pass over you."

    The atoning blood was on the OUTSIDE of the house - on the lentil over the front door. They inside could not see it. They did not need to see it. God said that when HE saw the blood of the lamb He would pass over that house when He judged.

    "When I see the blood I will pass over you."

    When we are in Christ by believing that God has raised Him from the dead and confess Him as our Lord - Christ Himself will become our Passover. God, in His eternal judgment, will pass over us because OUR judgment took place on the Son of God at Calvary.

    Come INTO Christ confessing Him as Lord.
    Come INTO Christ believing that God has raised Him from the dead.

    God says -

    "When I see the blood I will pass over you."


    Now here is a song, a hymn on "When I see the blood" which I hope some of you will become familiar with its lyrics. The writer really understood salvation well.

    When I See The Blood

    YouTube
  10. Standard membersonship
    the corrected one.
    Joined
    03 Jan '13
    Moves
    8660
    22 Jun '17 12:36
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    As best as I can piece together, you believe the dividing line is whether or not an individual believes and confesses "Jesus is Lord and that God has raised Him from the dead".

    Do I understand you correctly?
    Do I understand you correctly?


    You understand me correctly if you understand my quotation of Romans 10:9,10.

    "That if you [ThinkOfOne, or sonship] confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

    For with the heart there is believing unto righteousness, and with the mouth there is confession unto salvation. "
  11. Joined
    16 Feb '08
    Moves
    86387
    22 Jun '17 12:59
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    Seems that many Christians believe that salvation cannot be "earned" through an individual's "own efforts".

    Many also believe that salvation is granted only to those who believe in the "atoning sacrifice" of Jesus. That those who do not believe in the "atoning sacrifice" of Jesus are not granted salvation.

    This leaves not believing in the "atoning ...[text shortened]... who believe in "eternal suffering", how is this not a complete and utter perversion of justice?
    Of course there is always the possibility that god's provision is that all will be saved thanks to Jesus and that we actually have nothing to do except behave, obey and love one another.
  12. Standard membersonship
    the corrected one.
    Joined
    03 Jan '13
    Moves
    8660
    22 Jun '17 13:062 edits
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    If it comes from God, how does it make sense that God cannot forgive those for whom God did not give this belief?

    If it does not come from God, but from the individual. How does it make sense that it is not from the individual's "own efforts"?

    If God is a just God, how does it make sense that this is the dividing line between being granted or not being granted salvation? From being granted "eternal life"?

    For those who believe in "eternal suffering", how is this not a complete and utter perversion of justice?


    Is this your situation ?
    If it is not your situation, you should first give attention to what your situation is.

    Put no confidence in the thought that the job of God to do justly is too difficult. Therefore one need not believe into the Lord Jesus Christ.

    I have written many many times that there are some "unknowns" about how God will decide for some cases.

    Do not use these unknowns and bafflement at multiculturalism or world-wide pluralism to rationalize that you need not decide to be saved.

    You are not the aborted child, you are not that deaf, dumb and blind person in Timbuktu. You are not that case. Your case is your case. Respond to the offer of Christ appropriately for your case.

    You are not that mentally retarded person in the Amazon jungle.
    You are not that still born child born 100 years before Jesus ever lived.

    When the Gospel message comes to you, don't immediately imagine your case to be some very difficult case elsewhere that is just TOO hard for God to handle.

    Humble yourself under the mighty hand of God and respond according to what your circumstances are, not someone else's.

    I have made the decision that God's infinite wisdom and perplexing circumstances challenging to Christian doctrine, are not too mutually exclusive matters.

    This was addressed early in the Bible when Abraham repeatedly challenged God about His judgment of the city of Sodom in Genesis 18.

    I have settle it in my heart with Abraham that it is impossible for God to be unjust in His dealing.

    "Shall the Judge of all the earth not do justly ?" (Gen. 18:25c)


    Contemplate the size of the universe. Contemplate its macrocosm and its microcosm. We neither can reach with our minds the extent of its largeness nor the extent of its smallness. Though we quantize time and space we cannot know the limits.

    A second to us God can examine as a million years.
    His knowledge is without limit.

    It is better to trust Him even though we admit that there are unknowns about all of His ways. What He has told us we should respond to in belief.

    " Jesus said to him, I am the way and the reality and the life, no one comes to the Father except through Me." (John 14:6)


    Acts 14:12

    King James Bible
    Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

    Holman Christian Standard Bible
    There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to people, and we must be saved by it."
  13. SubscriberFMF
    Main Poster
    This Thread
    Joined
    28 Oct '05
    Moves
    29835
    22 Jun '17 13:41
    Originally posted by sonship
    It is very customary that some wavering skeptics think that to be a Christian is mainly to mentally agree with some concepts.

    Salvation is about owning a living Person - the risen Lord Jesus. In the Person of the living Jesus is all the matters of salvation.
    Salvation is about owning a living Person - the risen Lord Jesus. In the Person of the living Jesus is all the matters of salvation.

    Reality check, sonship: all this stuff you come out with is just elaborate and convoluted packaging of nothing more than "mentally agreeing with some concepts". The people who find it to be incoherent nonsense are then apparently guilty of thoughtcrimes.
  14. Joined
    15 Oct '06
    Moves
    10115
    22 Jun '17 14:03
    Originally posted by sonship
    Do I understand you correctly?


    You understand me correctly if you understand my quotation of [b]Romans 10:9,10
    .

    "That if you [ThinkOfOne, or sonship] confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

    For with the heart there is believing unto righteousness, and with the mouth there is confession unto salvation. "
    [/b]
    So you do believe the dividing line for salvation is whether or not an individual believes and confesses "Jesus is Lord and that God has raised Him from the dead"?
  15. Standard memberRajk999
    Enjoying
    On the Beach
    Joined
    04 Apr '04
    Moves
    170571
    22 Jun '17 14:03
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Of course there is always the possibility that god's provision is that all will be saved thanks to Jesus and that we actually have nothing to do except behave, obey and love one another.
    I think this is the most likely scenario. The typical Christian doctrine is that Jesus died so that all who proclaim their faith will be saved {therefore Christians only will be saved].

    Christ died so that all who live according to his precepts will be saved. Christians are [or should be] first in that group.

    Are you changing your doctrine?
Back to Top