18 May 21
1 edit
Not sure if I should ask this here or in Debates, but since this is spirituality, I'm sure someone will be able to shine some light on this.
The second coming of Jesus (as a lamb), as foretold in John's Book of Revelation, has a basis in previous texts in the bible (both the New Testatment and the Hebrew Bible).
Christian zionists claim that, before the second coming of Christ can happen, the Abrahamic convenant has to be fulfilled; especially that the borders of Israel have to be back in the place as promised in this convenant.
Now, one can discuss the Abrahamic convenant and whether it's already been fulfilled during the lives of David and Solomon or not.
But, where exactly do the Christian zionists base the connection on. I can't find anything in the bible that suggests that Abrahamic convenant has to be fulfilled before Christ (or the Messiah) can return to Earth.
Can someone point me in the right direction?
Thanks!
18 May 21
@shavixmir saidFirstly, the bible does not say that Jesus will return as a “lamb”, it describes him returning as being (in no particular order):
Not sure if I should ask this here or in Debates, but since this is spirituality, I'm sure someone will be able to shine some light on this.
The second coming of Jesus (as a lamb), as foretold in John's Book of Revelation, has a basis in previous texts in the bible (both the New Testatment and the Hebrew Bible).
Christian zionists claim that, before the second comin ...[text shortened]... t (or the Messiah) can return to Earth.
Can someone point me in the right direction?
Thanks!
- a thief in the night, I.e. largely unexpected
- with great signs visually and audibly I.e. not in secret
- as a king and a warrior
- with wrath and to make war
I don’t really know what a Christian Zionist is but I am assuming it is a Christian who believes that the physical city of Jerusalem is the “new Jerusalem” described in Revelation?
I’m not sure about Israel’s borders as such being specifically mentioned in the bible, but the nation was re-established in the 1940s.
The covenant with Abraham is/was replaced with the new covenant with Christ. The old covenant is fulfilled by Christ.
That’s how I understand it. Are you looking for a new connection with the current troubles?
18 May 21
@divegeester saidActually it does, but this is metaphorical. Jesus is the "sacrificial lamb" who was crucified as sacrifice to save sinners.
Firstly, the bible does not say that Jesus will return as a “lamb”
18 May 21
@divegeester saidNot neccerily to do with the current situation.
Firstly, the bible does not say that Jesus will return as a “lamb”, it describes him returning as being (in no particular order):
- a thief in the night, I.e. largely unexpected
- with great signs visually and audibly I.e. not in secret
- as a king and a warrior
- with wrath and to make war
I don’t really know what a Christian Zionist is but I am assuming it is ...[text shortened]... rist.
That’s how I understand it. Are you looking for a new connection with the current troubles?
But the Christian zionists (who want Jews sent back to Israel and everyone else booted out), defend their stance as biblical and that the borders of Israel have to be under Jewish control like states in the Abrahamic convenant.
I say Jewish, the Abrahamic convenant was obviously between God and the Hebrews, but that’s nit-picking.
And I’m seriously wondering how they connect it.
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18 May 21
@vivify saidJesus is very much the lamb in the Book of Revelation.
Actually it does, but this is metaphorical. Jesus is the "sacrificial lamb" who was crucified as sacrifice to save sinners.
@shavixmir saidFrom the top of my head the answer is yes.
Christian zionists claim that, before the second coming of Christ can happen, the Abrahamic convenant has to be fulfilled; especially that the borders of Israel have to be back in the place as promised in this convenant.
The Jews have to be back in Israel, with the old borders
Jerusalem has to be under Jewish control.
Solomon's Temple has to be rebuilt,
The Dead dries up,
Mt Sinai splits into two.
Some of these things are already happening.
Will provide some biblical support later.
18 May 21
@rajk999 saidYes please.
From the top of my head the answer is yes.
The Jews have to be back in Israel, with the old borders
Jerusalem has to be under Jewish control.
Solomon's Temple has to be rebuilt,
The Dead dries up,
Mt Sinai splits into two.
Some of these things are already happening.
Will provide some biblical support later.
It’s the biblical fundation I’m after.
Thanks.
18 May 21
@ghost-of-a-duke saidCorrect. But "lamb" is still metaphorical. The Bible isn't saying Jesus will come back as an animal covered in wool.
Jesus is very much the lamb in the Book of Revelation.
18 May 21
@vivify saidInteresting.
Actually it does, but this is metaphorical. Jesus is the "sacrificial lamb" who was crucified as sacrifice to save sinners.
I know “the lamb” is mentioned dozens of times in Revelation and of course Jesus is the Lamb as in the lamb high was sacrificed as a reflection of the Abrahamic covenant.
However, Jesus is mostly spoken of as the Lion, the King even a warrior in some translations. I think “the wrathful lamb” is mentioned. But he is not “a” lamb as in cuddly-wuddly and cutesy etc.
Do you have any scriptures in mind?
18 May 21
@ghost-of-a-duke saidHe is the lamb always until redemption is finished.
Jesus is very much the lamb in the Book of Revelation.
But the messianic return is generally depicted in terms of judgment, wrath, justice, war-cry and swords of truth etc.
18 May 21
@rajk999 saidWith respect, I think some scripture would be preferable to the top of your head 😆
From the top of my head the answer is yes.
The Jews have to be back in Israel, with the old borders
Jerusalem has to be under Jewish control.
Solomon's Temple has to be rebuilt,
The Dead dries up,
Mt Sinai splits into two.
Some of these things are already happening.
Will provide some biblical support later.
18 May 21
@shavixmir saidI’ve known a few “British Israel” people in the past.
Not neccerily to do with the current situation.
But the Christian zionists (who want Jews sent back to Israel and everyone else booted out), defend their stance as biblical and that the borders of Israel have to be under Jewish control like states in the Abrahamic convenant.
I say Jewish, the Abrahamic convenant was obviously between God and the Hebrews, but that’s nit-picking.
And I’m seriously wondering how they connect it.
They’d be fun in here!
@shavixmir saidHere is some of it. Will get some more as the day progresses. Its Mt Olives, not Sinai as I first stated. I dont really fancy this part of scripture and neither do I get deeply involved into analyzing or discussing it. I often read it and keep my opinions to myself. My reason is that many people go overboard and add their own opinions into it, and worse they try to make predictions which often prove to be nonsense.
Yes please.
It’s the biblical fundation I’m after.
Thanks.
Jerusalem under Gentile domination until the return of Christ
... and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. (Luke 21:24 KJV)
Scattering and other nations hatred of the Jews
And it shall come to pass, that as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it. And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone. And among these nations shalt thou find no ease, neither shall the sole of thy foot have rest: but the LORD shall give thee there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and sorrow of mind: And thy life shall hang in doubt before thee; and thou shalt fear day and night, and shalt have none assurance of thy life: (Deuteronomy 28:63-66 KJV)
Gatherng of the Jews to Israel
I will accept you with your sweet savour, when I bring you out from the people, and gather you out of the countries wherein ye have been scattered; and I will be sanctified in you before the heathen. And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall bring you into the land of Israel, into the country for the which I lifted up mine hand to give it to your fathers. (Ezekiel 20:41-42 KJV)
Last battle [Armageddon] and Mt Olives split into two
For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. (Zechariah 14:2-4 KJV)
18 May 21
@vivify saidBloody obviously!
Correct. But "lamb" is still metaphorical. The Bible isn't saying Jesus will come back as an animal covered in wool.
God damn. How is Jesus supposed to come back in wrathful vengeance as an actual bloody sheep...
Haha
As for the post more to the point... I’ll look it over tomorrow.... the wine (or Jesus’ blood) has uh... dulled the senses a wee bit.