Spirituality
12 Jul 11
12 Jul 11
Is thinking about it just as bad as doing it ? When you lust after someone in your mind, is it no different than just doing it ?
What about thinking that the Christian path is not for you ? Is that sin ?
What if you thought the Hindus have a good religion ? Is that sin ?
What if you were a a left wing peace activist ? You know that has to be a sin.
Just how does the thought process effect the sin ?
I've heard that your good works won't get you into Heaven.
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13 Jul 11
Originally posted by buckkyThinking about it is sometimes all we have.
Is thinking about it just as bad as doing it ? When you lust after someone in your mind, is it no different than just doing it ?
What about thinking that the Christian path is not for you ? Is that sin ?
What if you thought the Hindus have a good religion ? Is that sin ?
What if you were a a left wing peace activist ? You know that has to be a sin. ...[text shortened]... ought process effect the sin ?
I've heard that your good works won't get you into Heaven.
13 Jul 11
Originally posted by buckky========================================
Is thinking about it just as bad as doing it ? When you lust after someone in your mind, is it no different than just doing it ?
What about thinking that the Christian path is not for you ? Is that sin ?
What if you thought the Hindus have a good religion ? Is that sin ?
What if you were a a left wing peace activist ? You know that has to be a sin. ...[text shortened]... ought process effect the sin ?
I've heard that your good works won't get you into Heaven.
Is thinking about it just as bad as doing it ? When you lust after someone in your mind, is it no different than just doing it ?
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When you become a Christian you eventually will see that some of the thoughts that fly through your mind, you do not have to take responsibility for. They are firey darts injected into your thought life by evil spiritual powers.
There is an old saying among Christians "You can't stop a bird from flying over your head. But you can stop it from making a nest in your hair." That means that some fleeting thoughts will pass through your mind. You are not responsible until you have welcomed them to kind of settle down there.
Then what is in you will most likely make its way into your actions in some way.
Many of the evil things which are proposed to your mind seek ground in you, seek lodging and welcome in you. But they may not have originated in you. This is a spiritual matter.
The unbeliever has little or no defense. I know that this may not directly answer your question.
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What about thinking that the Christian path is not for you ? Is that sin ?
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Do you understand that "the Christian path" is actually a living Person ?
The "Christian path" is not a philosophy of living, or a code of rules, or a ideological outlook, or even a 12 step program.
The "Christian path" is a living Person who is available to know intimately. He is unusual. But He is a living Lord and Savior. The path is a Person.
"Thomas said to Him, Lord, we do not know where You are going; how can we know the way?
Jesus said to him, I am the way and the reality and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me." (John 14:5,6)
If I were you, I would go find a nice wide field somewhere, where I can talk outloud to God alone. And I would press one matter in prayer -
Lord Jesus, I realize now that the WAY is You Yourself. Jesus, You come to us with only Yourself as the Christian way, the Christian path. You, Lord Jesus, are the only way. I realize now that it is You Yourself that I must receive."
You ask if to not believe in Christ as the way is a sin ?
Yes. According to the words of Christ, when He spoke about Him sending the Holy Spirit into the word to convict sinners to be saved:
"And when He comes, He will convict the world concerning sin and concerning righteousness and concerning judgment:
Concerning sin, because they do not believe into Me; And concerning righteousness because I go to the Father and you no longer behold Me; And concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged." (John 16:8-11)
1.) To not believe in Jesus Christ as the Lord and Savior, the Son of God, is the worst and unique sin by which the unbeliever will perish.
2.) The resurrection and ascension of Christ, (His going to the Father), is the seal of God's abolute approval of His perfect and righteous life on earth and His enthronement as Lord of all for eternity.
3.) All the excuses of Satan are judged along with himself by Christ's redemptive death. Satan, the ruler of this rebellious world, has been judged in all his methods by Christ's death on the cross.
We therefore should not have "an evil heart of unbelief in falling away from the living God."
"Beware, brothers, lest perhaps there be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief in falling away from the living God."
Once we realize that Christ and God are a living Person, we should not harden out hearts. We are near to God and should open up to receive Christ as our Lord:
"Seek Jehovah while He may be found; Call upon Him while He is near. Let the wicked forseake his way, and the evildoer, his thoughts; And let him retun to Jehovah, and He will have compassion on him; And to our God, for He will pardon abundantly." (Isaiah 55:6,7)
It is very precious to grasp that our Savior is a living God, and living Person. If that truth dawns upon you, you should not lose it and sink back into darkness.
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What if you thought the Hindus have a good religion ? Is that sin ?
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Knowing that this or that is sin will not save you from sin's penalty. Only the blood of Jesus will save you from sin's penalty.
It is not because you know that this or that or the other is sinful that will be your salvation. It is Christ Himself and His redemptive death and resurrection which will be your salvation.
You have no idea of the extent of sin's reign in your life. If you saw the full scope of it you would be crushed. Don't focus on your sins. Turn your eyes to Jesus. Look away to Jesus the Living Lord.
Look away to Christ Jesus. Look away from everything unto Jesus.
14 Jul 11
Originally posted by buckkyI've heard that your good works won't get you into Heaven.
Is thinking about it just as bad as doing it ? When you lust after someone in your mind, is it no different than just doing it ?
What about thinking that the Christian path is not for you ? Is that sin ?
What if you thought the Hindus have a good religion ? Is that sin ?
What if you were a a left wing peace activist ? You know that has to be a sin. ...[text shortened]... ought process effect the sin ?
I've heard that your good works won't get you into Heaven.
It's a question of quality, really.
Absolute perfection can only accept absolute perfection. In the Garden, God communed with the man and the woman every day, walking in the cool of the evening, introducing Himself to them and enjoying the conversation. They were created without sin, perfect. He could have rapport with them, as they possessed the same righteousness as He: after all, He had breathed into them His Spirit, thus they shared His righteousness.
Sin entered the picture on the basis of a decision. The woman saw that the fruit was attractive, was enticed to know as much as God... but still hadn't sinned. Walking to the tree, reaching out for the fruit, grasping the fruit, drawing it to her mouth: she still hadn't sinned. She was certainly thinking about it, but the only stipulation God had placed on man was to not eat of the fruit. He didn't forbid looking, touching or even lusting after the fruit, just the actual eating of it. So really, your question about thoughts is somewhat begging the question. Could the woman have accidentally eaten the fruit? Nope. She facilitated the eating with all of the steps leading up to the actual bite, each one of them a decision of thought, culminating with a decision of action. The point is, what we think, we become.
In the post-Garden experience, man is without the requisite righteousness, pushed from the Garden, cut-off from the communion for which he was originally created. His decision made rapport with God impossible, and impossible to bridge on his own. The previous state of righteousness wasn't something he obtained by virtue of his own efforts, thus he could not build a tower back into the heavens and demand its return. The answer was provided before the question which was eventually asked: God Himself would bridge the gap, again with providing His own righteousness.
The Lord Jesus Christ was qualified by virtue of His perfection, of His sinless life, to absorb the sin and transfer the debt of death from man onto Himself. His death also transfers His life and righteousness back onto as many as receive Him, on the basis of their decision to accept the gift.
14 Jul 11
Originally posted by jaywillThank you for this. I think I'll get this verse framed and put it on my wall, or maybe just paint it on my wall in big block letters.
"Seek Jehovah while He may be found; Call upon Him while He is near. Let the wicked forseake his way, and the evildoer, his thoughts; And let him retun to Jehovah, and He will have compassion on him; And to our God, for He will pardon abundantly." (Isaiah 55:6,7)
It is very precious to grasp that our Savior is a living God, and living Person. If that truth dawns upon you, you should not lose it and sink back into darkness.
(Keeping in mind, of course, that the Jehovah mentioned here is one and the same with Christ Jesus. (Take THAT, you anti-trinitarians!)) 😀
15 Jul 11
Originally posted by buckky2 Corinthians 10:5 - Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
Is thinking about it just as bad as doing it ? When you lust after someone in your mind, is it no different than just doing it ?
What about thinking that the Christian path is not for you ? Is that sin ?
What if you thought the Hindus have a good religion ? Is that sin ?
What if you were a a left wing peace activist ? You know that has to be a sin. ...[text shortened]... ought process effect the sin ?
I've heard that your good works won't get you into Heaven.
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17 Jul 11
Supposedly if you think about committing adultery, you have done so. And therefor if you are making love to your husband or spouse and you think about someone else, you are committing adultery. It's all in the thought.
So I put to a friend of mine - "Does this mean that I can sleep with another woman as long as I think about only my own wife while doing it?"
His response - "You're going to need a special priest. Maybe a Jesuit."
17 Jul 11
Originally posted by buckky
Is thinking about it just as bad as doing it ? When you lust after someone in your mind, is it no different than just doing it ?
It is different. It's a sin, but if you stop there and don't actually go ahead and do it, it's only a single sin. The actual act is a separate act, and so is a separate (and more serious) sin.
All this is only objectively speaking, of course. The circumstances and your knowledge and intention affect the seriousness of the sin, as well.
What about thinking that the Christian path is not for you ? Is that sin ?
Maybe, maybe not. Depends on what "the Christian path" means.
What if you thought the Hindus have a good religion ? Is that sin ?
Again, it depends on your knowledge and the specific thought and the circumstances.
What if you were a a left wing peace activist ? You know that has to be a sin.
Not necessarily. 🙂
Just how does the thought process effect the sin ?
Well, traditionally this way:
if (a) you know that to willfully entertain a particular thought is objectively wrong, and
(b) after sufficient reflection (which will be different for different people and different thoughts), you decide to keep thinking about it anyway,
you've committed a sin. If it's a thought that might lead to an action which is also sinful, then going ahead with the action is another, usually more serious, sin.
I've heard that your good works won't get you into Heaven.
That's an entirely different question. I don't even know where to start on that one. 🙂
17 Jul 11
4 edits
Originally posted by Kunsoo=============================
Supposedly if you think about committing adultery, you have done so. And therefor if you are making love to your husband or spouse and you think about someone else, you are committing adultery. It's all in the thought.
So I put to a friend of mine - "Does this mean that I can sleep with another woman as long as I think about only my own wife while doing it?"
His response - "You're going to need a special priest. Maybe a Jesuit."
His response - "You're going to need a special priest. Maybe a Jesuit."
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I suppose that the rest of your post was meant to be humorous or a lampoon of some sort. So I did not take it too seriously.
But the Roman Catholic Church erred greatly in its establishment of the priestly class. In forbidding priests to be married, according the the Apostle Paul, this was a doctrine of DEMONS. Any doctrine of demons for sure is to damage the Christian church rather than help Christians.
Right here:
"But the Spirit says expressly that in the later times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and teachings of demons by means of the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, of men who are branded in their own conscience as with a hot iron,
Who forbid marriage [and command] abstaining from foods, which God has created to be partaken ... etc. (1 Timothy 4:1-3)
The legal forbidding of marraige to those who wish to serve the Lord with their full time, is a teaching of demons. To voluntarily abstain from marrying is a matter between God's servant and God. But the doctrine of abstainance for priests and nuns should be regarded as legalism and a doctrine of demons.
Demons are evil spirits serving Satan. They are the disembodied spirits of beings who lost their physical bodies in the creation before the creation of Adam. But the origin of demons is really another discussion.
Here, I wish to point out that getting help from Jesuits in regard to marriage questions is not that wise because forbidding to marry in order to serve God is a demonic doctrine.
Now, Joseph's contribution of the seeking to bring every thought to the obedience of Christ, from Second Corinthians, is a good piece of ministry. It is also a life long practice of the Christian life. And it goes deeper and deeper as the years go by.
Gradually, and by process, the Lord Jesus should have more and more enfluence over our thought process as the passage teaches. That is every thought must come unto subjection to the Spirit of God.
"Let the words of my mouth and the MEDITATION of my heart be acceptable to You, O Lord, my rock my Redeemer." (Psalm 19:14)
17 Jul 11
When a Christian becomes sick and tired of being defeated by sins, he will seek to cut off the motive of sinning. This involves allowing the Lord Jesus to get at the thought life.
Just gritting one's teeth at the action of sinning will no longer do. In fact it can backfire completely. There is a principle in the sinful flesh of fallen man which wants to disobey. To put rules upon the flesh often invites greater temptation.
Once the Christian becomes sick and tired of being sick and tired, he will begin to turn his heart to the Lord, not at the action of sinning, but WAY before. That is when the thought is beginning to develop to sin.
Here is where every thought he begins to examine in the light of the Holy Spirit. He knows that if he continues to imagine or think in a certain way, he will do an action of iniquity. So the thought life must come under the control of the Spirit of Christ.
Calling on the name of the Lord Jesus in prayer sets the mind on the Spirit. And when we resist the devil in Christ, the devil will flee from us. In a sense we should say:
"Lord Jesus. I don't even want to deal with this temptation. You overcame the world. You are the Victor. You overcame the Devil. Here, Lord Jesus. You deal with this matter."
This is learning , "Not I but Christ" . And Satan can do nothing with the person who learns to practice "Not I that lives, but Christ that lives within me."
Christ is the Victor. And Christ has become the life giving Spirit that He could be dispensed into man that man might live in Christ as a realm:
"the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)
Jesus Christ, in resurrection, became a life giving Spirit. Life giving Spirit means VICTORY giving Spirit, FREEDOM giving Spirit, RIGHTOUENESS giving Spirit, OVERCOMING giving Spirit, POWER giving Spirit, ABILITY giving Spirit.
Life giving Spirit is a GOD giving Spirit. Life giving Spirit is a CHRIST giving Spirit. A life giving Spirit is a Spirit dispensing divine life to empower and enable the believer to live IN Christ and allow Christ to live through him.
"The last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 14:45) It is impossible to over estimate the importance of this TRUTH.
17 Jul 11
jaywill,
Much of what you say is good, but this is just wrong:
But the Roman Catholic Church erred greatly in its establishment of the priestly class. In forbidding priests to be married, according the the Apostle Paul, this was a doctrine of DEMONS.
Read I Cor 7 (in a good translation, preferably Challoner, which is available online here: http://drbo.org ). You can also refer to the notes on I Tim 4 for a correct understanding of that passage.
17 Jul 11
6 edits
Originally posted by pyxelatedThe footnote of the Recovery Version Bible on 1 Timothy 4:3,4 is quite helpful to Christians:
jaywill,
Much of what you say is good, but this is just wrong:
[b]But the Roman Catholic Church erred greatly in its establishment of the priestly class. In forbidding priests to be married, according the the Apostle Paul, this was a doctrine of DEMONS.
Read I Cor 7 (in a good translation, preferably Challoner, which is available online here: ...[text shortened]... o.org ). You can also refer to the notes on I Tim 4 for a correct understanding of that passage.[/b]
"Marriage and eating were ordained by God. eating is for the existence of mankind, and marriage is for the continuation and multiplication of mankind. In the one hand, Satan causes men to abuse these two things in the indulgence of their lustful flesh; on the other hand, he over-stresses asceticism in forbidding men to marry and in commanding men to abstain from certain foods. This is a demonic teaching!."
It is a matter of avoiding either extreme. For Satan always sends errors into the world in opposite pairs in order to trap people in one extreme or the opposite.
Endulgence in lust in sex is damaging to mankind on one side.
But asceticism with religious fervor is damaging to man on the other side.
If a man or woman voluntarily decides before God that he or she wants to remain single for his or her whole life, in order to dedicate full time to laboring in the Lord, that is perfectly acceptable, if they have the grace of God to do so.
To make the a church law to forbid marriage as a legality to those seeking to serve God with their full time, is a doctrine of demons per First Timothy 4:1-3.
"Deceiving spirits" and "teachings of demons" enfluencing men to establish a doctrine "forbidding marriage" is an error predicted by the word of God.
What room is there for argument ? Are you saying that First Timothy 4:1-3 is wrong ? Are you saying that for Christain brothers to establish a legality that other Christian brothers must be forbidden to marry if they wish to serve the Lord, is a teaching with its source in the Holy Spirit of God ?
If that is what you are saying, I think you flatly contradict First Timothy 4:1-3 outright. I have to believe the New Testament there.
17 Jul 11
"Deceiving spirits" and "teachings of demons" enfluencing men to establish a doctrine "forbidding marriage" is an error predicted by the word of God.jaywill said:
What room is there for argument ? Are you saying that First Timothy 4:1-3 is wrong ? Are you saying that for Christain brothers to establish a legality that other Christian brothers must be forbidden to marry if they ...[text shortened]... ontradict First Timothy 4:1-3 outright. I have to believe the New Testament there.[/b]
"Deceiving spirits" and "teachings of demons" enfluencing men to establish a doctrine "forbidding marriage" is an error predicted by the word of God.
What room is there for argument ? Are you saying that First Timothy 4:1-3 is wrong ? Are you saying that for Christain brothers to establish a legality that other Christian brothers must be forbidden to marry if they wish to serve the Lord, is a teaching with its source in the Holy Spirit of God ?
If that is what you are saying, I think you flatly contradict First Timothy 4:1-3 outright. I have to believe the New Testament there.[/b]
pyxelated replies:
Before we argue, we need to agree.
Clearly you didn't bother to read the passages and the notes from the Douay-Rheims Bible. What I am saying, or rather asking, is: what justifies your applying I Tim 4 to the Catholic Church, when there have been heretical sects which have forbidden any of their members from marrying, and forbidden people from eating certain foods altogether? Where do you get the authority to decree that the passage applies to the Catholic Church, and not these sects, and that the case is closed, jaywill has spoken?
For my interpretation to "flatly contradict" Scripture, the passage in question would have to be perfectly clear and umambiguous (not to mention an accurate translation of the original). I don't think it's nearly as cut-and-dried as it seems to you.
17 Jul 11
5 edits
Originally posted by pyxelated=====================================
jaywill said:
[b]"Deceiving spirits" and "teachings of demons" enfluencing men to establish a doctrine "forbidding marriage" is an error predicted by the word of God.
What room is there for argument ? Are you saying that First Timothy 4:1-3 is wrong ? Are you saying that for Christain brothers to establish a legality that tion of the original). I don't think it's nearly as cut-and-dried as it seems to you.[/b]
Clearly you didn't bother to read the passages and the notes from the Douay-Rheims Bible.
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I will get to that this session.
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What I am saying, or rather asking, is: what justifies your applying I Tim 4 to the Catholic Church, when there have been heretical sects which have forbidden any of their members from marrying, and forbidden people from eating certain foods altogether?
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I by no means mean to imply no other Christian sects have picked up doctrines of demons. But "Jesuits" were mentioned in your post. So I refered to Catholicism.
Wasn't it you who refered to asking advice on Christian marriage issues from the Jesuit priests ?
But for the record, the Roman Catholic Church does not have a monopoly on mixture and error leavening the Gospel of Christ with traditional or even demonic ideas.
But she is the oldest Christianity sect. And all the divisions came out of her, to a larger or smaller degree carrying some of her errors with them.
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Where do you get the authority to decree that the passage applies to the Catholic Church, and not these sects, and that the case is closed, jaywill has spoken?
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It is hard for me to write this post AND refer to another post that I wrote. But I wonder if I said ie. "This is the INTERPRETATION of this passage. It means the Catholic Church" or my tone was "Here is an APPLICATION of this passage. It involves the Catholic Church".
The verse says "But the Spirit says expressly that in the later times SOME will depart from the faith, giving heed to deeiving spirits and teachings of demons ..."
Does "SOME" include the historic teachers of Roman Catholicism that forbade marriage and abstinence from certain foods ? I think the answer is yes, "SOME" would include that glaring example.
Does "SOME" exclude non-Catholic teachers from the error ? Are all Protestant teachers excluded from this "SOME" ? By no means.
The only authority I have is that of example. The Roman Church is the largest and oldest sect of Christianity. And representatively, I used her as an example of instituting a legal system of forbidding marriage.
If you wish to add to the list of non-Catholic teachers who also were deceived by spirits and doctrines of demons, I have no objection whatsoever.
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For my interpretation to "flatly contradict" Scripture, the passage in question would have to be perfectly clear and umambiguous (not to mention an accurate translation of the original). I don't think it's nearly as cut-and-dried as it seems to you.
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The Roman Catholic Church contains many brothers and sisters in Christ who love the Lord very much. Some love the Lord Jesus more than I do, probably.
MIXTURE is the nature of the Roman Catholic Church. That is the MIXTURE of biblical things with bantantly unbiblical things. It is not all unbiblical things. The clearest truths are also buried deep down in her teachings. It is a huge MIXTURE. It is not all bad.
But following Paul's prediction of the apostasy of the latter times in this regard, he tells Timothy:
"If you lay these things before the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, being nourished with the words of the faith and of the good teaching which you have closely followed." (1 Tim. 4:6)
So I trust that in pointing a, (if not the only), instance in history of deception by demons, in the way of warning, I am a "good minister of Christ Jesus" .
I will bear the responsibility for what I wrote before the Lord at the judgment seat of Christ. I don't retract it.
But you are right that it was not solely a problem of the Roman Catholic Church.
I will not visit your website to see what it has to offer.