1. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
    Uk
    Joined
    21 Jan '06
    Moves
    443
    10 Mar '08 17:561 edit
    In response to the recent post about time travel I thought I would outline my conception of how God sees time and how it relates to free will.

    My conception is thus... imagine Harry's life laid out in front of you like a wiggling snake on the ground from birth to death (tip to tail). The snake is Harry's timeline of his life. Harry's snake is made up of miniscule segments or sections so that if you chopped the snake up in cross section you could chop it into a trillion pieces like lots of cds stuck together in sequence.

    Each cd is a point in time in harry's life but it is also a point in time where harry has made a free choice. You can see in front of you the choices harry has made because you can see the twists and turns of the snake. For example , there's a point in 2004 where harry makes a big decision and his snake kinks abruptly to the left accordingly.

    Now each CD has a video clip on it and on this video clip is what harry is choosing at that point in time. So if you play that clip you will see harry making a choice in that individual present moment. This snake is made up of countless cds all with their own present moment and all capable of changing the course of the snake.

    However , you see the shape the snake has made through time as set and fixed. In 2004 harry will choose A and in 2016 harry will choose C. But if you visit 2016 and play the cd you will see what's happening in that present moment for harry and see the potential for anything to happen. What you see in 2016 is harry setting his own present choice. The path of the snake becomes set by that present moment and nothing else. At that point in time the snake really could take any path but it has to take one path because we only get one life not hundreds.

    In this model harry does not move through a tunnel of time that is set for him but is setting the snake in place as he goes. Except for you (in God's persepctive) you see a series of present moments that are all "now" for you (because you are present with harry in his cd videoclip) but also you can be present in ALL harry's "now" moments as well. To you harry's present , future and past are all one because harry is having a present moment within each of his "nows".

    Harry wonders how on earth that God can know what he will choose in 2016 if it is not set , but for God it's just the same as how he knows harry's present. For God 2016 is just as much "now" as 2008 , even though harry hasn't got there yet. God is already there.

    So it's not as if God knows what harry WILL do in advance he just sees the choice that harry IS making at that very moment. Harry's life for God is just a series of "nows" all as equal as each other. Harry is creating the path of his snake as he moves through these present moments. For God there is no need to make any predictions or have "foresight" because he is not looking "along" the snake of CDs but sideways at them all equally.

    Harry asks God how can I choose differently in 2016 if you know what I will choose? God replies "will? what do you mean "will". I'm watching you choose now harry..and yes you make a choice but it's you that's choosing your path"

    At that moment in 2018 harry is still free to choose and as long as he is free IN THAT MOMENT that's all that matters.
  2. Joined
    28 Aug '07
    Moves
    3178
    10 Mar '08 18:10
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    In response to the recent post about time travel I thought I would outline my conception of how God sees time and how it relates to free will.

    My conception is thus... imagine Harry's life laid out in front of you like a wiggling snake on the ground from birth to death (tip to tail). The snake is Harry's timeline of his life. Harry's snake is made ...[text shortened]... s long as he is free IN THAT MOMENT that's all that matters.
    that does not make sense...

    your conception is quite useless and adds nothing new to the discussion of free-will - omnipotence.
    Saying God is looking at the present doesn't change a thing comparing to say he knows the future. Things will only happen one way, and God knows how. He did from the first moment. Doesn't matter if he's looking at them at his present and know, or if he know the future and knows.
  3. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
    Uk
    Joined
    21 Jan '06
    Moves
    443
    10 Mar '08 21:451 edit
    Originally posted by serigado
    that does not make sense...

    your conception is quite useless and adds nothing new to the discussion of free-will - omnipotence.
    Saying God is looking at the present doesn't change a thing comparing to say he knows the future. Things will only happen one way, and God knows how. He did from the first moment. Doesn't matter if he's looking at them at his present and know, or if he know the future and knows.
    Of course it doesn't make sense , we are trapped in time so to us it seems a completely bizarre idea. Saying it doesn't make sense from our perspective in time is just an obvious truism. For an eternal being it could make sense , and God is supposed to be eternal the last time I looked.

    All you come up with are statements but where's your argument or counter model?

    The discussion this model addresses is the free will versus omniscience (not omnipotence) argument.

    BTW- When was this "first moment " you talk of? Do you mean the moment God came into existence ? LOL

    You are right in a way though things will only happen one way in your life , God already knows if you choose him or not. The issue is not whether things will only happen one way BUT whether that's the only way it COULD have been. There is only one future ahead of you and that's the future you will choose , but the question is this, could your future have been different? The fact that you only have one future is neither here nor there because the key question is could you potentially have many futures?
  4. Joined
    28 Aug '07
    Moves
    3178
    10 Mar '08 23:20
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    Of course it doesn't make sense , we are trapped in time so to us it seems a completely bizarre idea. Saying it doesn't make sense from our perspective in time is just an obvious truism. For an eternal being it could make sense , and God is supposed to be eternal the last time I looked.

    All you come up with are statements but where's your argument ...[text shortened]... ither here nor there because the key question is could you potentially have many futures?
    eternal is different from being everywhere, moving through all times. You're going beyond the bible to make a model that fits your personal beliefs.

    My counter model -> God does not exist.

    My counter model assuming God exists -> God is omnipotent, but doesn't know the future.

    When I said "first moment" I meant - from the moment God created us.

    Please, add A+B:
    If God knows how everything is going to happen, and knowing things only can happen one way, what sense does it make to punish us, and make up sin/salvation? That would only make sense as a preventive measure so that we could be corrected and deviated to the right way. That means: to a different outcome.
    There would truly be no free will: only an illusion of free will to us. No matter what, the future would already be written.
    Now , if God created us and knew directly the outcome, he was the only responsible for the outcome, because he had direct power over it.
  5. Standard memberAgerg
    The 'edit'or
    converging to it
    Joined
    21 Aug '06
    Moves
    11458
    10 Mar '08 23:291 edit
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    In response to the recent post about time travel I thought I would outline my conception of how God sees time and how it relates to free will.

    My conception is thus... imagine Harry's life laid out in front of you like a wiggling snake on the ground from birth to death (tip to tail). The snake is Harry's timeline of his life. Harry's snake is made s long as he is free IN THAT MOMENT that's all that matters.
    For one thing, (and I'll leave the juicier morsels for the rest) Your model assumes that an omnipotent god is forced to exist in the state you posit. Seems highly contrived/ dubious to say the least.
  6. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
    Uk
    Joined
    21 Jan '06
    Moves
    443
    11 Mar '08 22:07
    Originally posted by serigado
    eternal is different from being everywhere, moving through all times. You're going beyond the bible to make a model that fits your personal beliefs.

    My counter model -> God does not exist.

    My counter model assuming God exists -> God is omnipotent, but doesn't know the future.

    When I said "first moment" I meant - from the moment God created us.

    ...[text shortened]... e outcome, he was the only responsible for the outcome, because he had direct power over it.
    eternal is different from being everywhere, moving through all times. You're going beyond the bible to make a model that fits your personal beliefs.---serigado----

    This may or may not be true but that aside would you accept that such a God (who could be equally present to your future and your past simultaneously) would not know anything "in advance" but would just know everything as "now".
  7. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
    Uk
    Joined
    21 Jan '06
    Moves
    443
    11 Mar '08 22:11
    Originally posted by serigado
    eternal is different from being everywhere, moving through all times. You're going beyond the bible to make a model that fits your personal beliefs.

    My counter model -> God does not exist.

    My counter model assuming God exists -> God is omnipotent, but doesn't know the future.

    When I said "first moment" I meant - from the moment God created us.

    ...[text shortened]... e outcome, he was the only responsible for the outcome, because he had direct power over it.
    "If God knows how everything is going to happen, and knowing things only can happen one way, what sense does it make to punish us (HE DOESN'T PUNISH US HE PUNISHES JESUS INSTEAD), and make up sin/salvation? That would only make sense as a preventive measure so that we could be corrected and deviated to the right way (WHAT DO YOU THINK THE GOSPEL IS FOR IF IT IS NOT THERE TO TRY AND CORRECT US AND SET US ON THE RIGHT PATH?). That means: to a different outcome.
    There would truly be no free will: only an illusion of free will to us. No matter what, the future would already be written.
    Now , if God created us and knew directly the outcome, he was the only responsible for the outcome (AND HE TOOK THAT RESPONSIBILITY FOR SIN ON HIMSELF ON THE CROSS), because he had direct power over it."
  8. Cape Town
    Joined
    14 Apr '05
    Moves
    52945
    12 Mar '08 07:23
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    Of course it doesn't make sense , we are trapped in time so to us it seems a completely bizarre idea. Saying it doesn't make sense from our perspective in time is just an obvious truism. For an eternal being it could make sense , and God is supposed to be eternal the last time I looked.
    I have always found it weird the way you twist your logic into a circular fallacy.
    You claim:
    1. your proposal doesnt make sense, and infact, cannot make sense to us mere mortals.
    2. your proposal may infact make sense to God.
    3. that since it may make sense to God, it therefore may make sense to you.
    But 3 contradicts 1.
    The only way you could possibly know the answer to 2. is if you have direct communication from God on the matter. Do you?

    It would be just as reasonable and illogical to propose that up is down and down is up. After all, even though we cant make head or tail of it, it may make sense to God therefore it is possible.
  9. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
    Uk
    Joined
    21 Jan '06
    Moves
    443
    12 Mar '08 23:081 edit
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    I have always found it weird the way you twist your logic into a circular fallacy.
    You claim:
    1. your proposal doesnt make sense, and infact, cannot make sense to us mere mortals.
    2. your proposal may infact make sense to God.
    3. that since it may make sense to God, it therefore may make sense to you.
    But 3 contradicts 1.
    The only way you could poss ...[text shortened]... even though we cant make head or tail of it, it may make sense to God therefore it is possible.
    I don't think we are able to fully grasp it but I do think that if we allow ourselves to contemplate it then it can seem more possible.

    All I am saying is that the fact that it seems a weird idea to us as beings on a timeline does not constitute proof that it's not possible. Qunatum entanglement is a weird idea and is counter intuitive but science accepts this. The idea that God can know your future but you can still be free to choose is counter intuitive. But counter intuitive ideas are not neccessarily false ideas and neither is the mere fact that it is counter intuitive mean that it's not possible.

    Therefore , when you say "it doesn't make sense to me from my perspective in time" I'm not surprised because of course it wouldn't. However , I think that it can make more sense than you realise and just because we can't totally grasp it fully doesn't mean we can't get a handle on it.

    I also think that because of your "Christianity must be false" default agenda you are not prepared to give the idea even a faintest chance in your mind. The seed is never allowed to be planted. I understand that , that's your way , but let's drop this childish "it doesn't make sense" stuff and have a grown up debate about it.
  10. Cape Town
    Joined
    14 Apr '05
    Moves
    52945
    13 Mar '08 09:27
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    Qunatum entanglement is a weird idea and is counter intuitive but science accepts this.
    But when there are logical contradictions, science does not accept it. In fact much of modern science is about trying to resolve any such issues apparent in quantum mechanics. Your concepts are not just weird and counter intuitive, they are incoherent - a totally different class of problem.

    The idea that God can know your future but you can still be free to choose is counter intuitive. But counter intuitive ideas are not neccessarily false ideas and neither is the mere fact that it is counter intuitive mean that it's not possible.
    At no point have I claimed that it is counter intuitive, nor was that your argument. Your argument was that even though it was illogical and incoherent, you might still accept it. a=~a is not counter intuitive, it is incoherent nonsense which can never ever ever be considered true.

    I also think that because of your "Christianity must be false" default agenda you are not prepared to give the idea even a faintest chance in your mind. The seed is never allowed to be planted. I understand that , that's your way , but let's drop this childish "it doesn't make sense" stuff and have a grown up debate about it.
    My thoughts on this matter have nothing to do with my "Christianity must be false" default agenda. I am very interested in the physics of the universe and if your concept was feasible, it would be possible for it to make sense and be studied without including God in the picture at all.
  11. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
    Uk
    Joined
    21 Jan '06
    Moves
    443
    13 Mar '08 21:27
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    But when there are logical contradictions, science does not accept it. In fact much of modern science is about trying to resolve any such issues apparent in quantum mechanics. Your concepts are not just weird and counter intuitive, they are incoherent - a totally different class of problem.

    [b]The idea that God can know your future but you can still be ...[text shortened]... sible for it to make sense and be studied without including God in the picture at all.
    Ok , so would you accept that if there were dimensions beyond time (eg 5th 6th 7th dimensions) then an alien who existed in these dimensions might , just might be able to know your future even if you had free will?
  12. Standard memberAgerg
    The 'edit'or
    converging to it
    Joined
    21 Aug '06
    Moves
    11458
    14 Mar '08 01:245 edits
    I cocked up!...post deleted (saw a minus sign in twiteheads post not a tilde sign)
  13. Cape Town
    Joined
    14 Apr '05
    Moves
    52945
    14 Mar '08 05:58
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    Ok , so would you accept that if there were dimensions beyond time (eg 5th 6th 7th dimensions) then an alien who existed in these dimensions might , just might be able to know your future even if you had free will?
    No, I believe that free will (by your definition) is incompatible with the existence of single timeline. In other words, if we have free will then we do not have a single future for aliens of whatever dimension to know about.
  14. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
    Uk
    Joined
    21 Jan '06
    Moves
    443
    14 Mar '08 19:401 edit
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    No, I believe that free will (by your definition) is incompatible with the existence of single timeline. In other words, if we have free will then we do not have a single future for aliens of whatever dimension to know about.
    So you believe that for free will to exist we would need to make ALL the choices available to us and not just one of those choices?

    What is your argument or proof for this?



    (Also - would you accept that if free will could exist in a single timeline then my argument would hold)
  15. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
    Uk
    Joined
    21 Jan '06
    Moves
    443
    15 Mar '08 19:32
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    But when there are logical contradictions, science does not accept it. In fact much of modern science is about trying to resolve any such issues apparent in quantum mechanics. Your concepts are not just weird and counter intuitive, they are incoherent - a totally different class of problem.

    [b]The idea that God can know your future but you can still be ...[text shortened]... sible for it to make sense and be studied without including God in the picture at all.
    But when there are logical contradictions, science does not accept it. In fact much of modern science is about trying to resolve any such issues apparent in quantum mechanics. Your concepts are not just weird and counter intuitive, they are incoherent - a totally different class of problem.----whitey----

    But for me there are no logical contradictions to my argument ultimately. To me it makes perfect sense that a being in a 5th eternal dimension would be able to know my future choices whether they are free or not.

    If you choose to preassume that a) eternity cannot exist and b) fre will cannot exist then you will of course create contradictions.

    However , this whole line of thought is in response to arguments that IF God existed then how could he know our future free choices IF they were really free.

    You haven't even come close to showing that God couldn't because all your arguments either pre assume we cannot have free will or that God cannot exist outside of time.

    Once you stop pre-assuming these things then the logical "contradiction" is not a contradiction any more. I do not expect you to believe that free will exists nor that God is eternal. What I do expect is that you understand that for someone who holds these beliefs there is no contradiction really , it's just a strange idea to get used to because we are trapped in time.
Back to Top