To the World's Religious Leaders

Originally posted by vistesd
Tradition has it that the Holy of Holies in the temple at Jerusalem was empty.

Not to get everyone off track but I thought that the ark of the covenant was in the holy of holies?

Originally posted by Varqa
As I read the news this morning, I am amazed at what the religious leaders are getting away with. The Catholic Church needs insurance to cover all the sexual abuse cases. Islamic leaders promote suicide bombing which kill and maim innocent women and children going about their lives.
I am reminded of this letter which so elegantly tries to remind the religious ...[text shortened]... ke a moment to read it and perhaps we can discuss it.

http://www.uga.edu/~bahai/wrldldrs.html

This is, in fact, NOTHING NEW!! Who sent Christ to the cross? Was it not the religious leaders of his day? Who did Christ come into conflict with? Was the it the common sinner? No, in fact, he came into conflict with the religious leaders of his day.

I do not mean to villify ALL of those who could be termed "religious leaders" because all of them do not fit the bill just as in the time of Chrust such as Nicademus. However, it is important to note that such a title carries with it a certain amount of power and we all know the problems of personal power in how it tends to lead to selfish ambition to various degrees.

I think those of us who recognize that man is in a fallen state are much more keenly aware of the potential for abuse. Those that do not recognize our fallen state, however, are much more likely to blindly follow those they think are "holy" naturally. This is one of my main concerns about religions such as Islam that do not recognize our fallen state and are much more likely to blindly follow some Iman who talks for God for the masses. Also troubling are those who view the Pope within Christiandom as infallible and who also may be bindly followed as a result.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
The more I read it, the more I understand Mark Twain's frustration with this type of free will philosophy.

Twain decries our 'disastrous moral sense', because it only gives us the chance to go wrong. The animals are all innocent and perfectly obedient to god. We're the only species dumb enough to defy god. Yet, we think we're superior. As Twain says, one true path amongst a thousand false ones? Probability speaks poorly of our chances.

GOD sent the same message to many prophets since the begining of human race. They all came with the same message.

"There is only one GOD, the creator of everything. He wants you to worship him by your choice, and to follow his law. Those who follow will gain his love and mercy. Those who don't accept his message deserve their punishment "

You don't accept this and you claim he didn't communicate to you, and continue searching for an evidence.

If you don't like this message then it is your choice not to accept it. But it is not because the message is not clear.

Every one who don't belive in GOD ask the question, Why does GOD punish some people? but no one askes why does he rewards others?
----------------------
What is the point of allowing us all to 'find our way', if there's only one true path amongst a thousand false ones? Probability speaks poorly of our chances.

GOD wanted you to find you without seeing him.

Read this Hadith:



Sahih El Bukhari , The book of belief,
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/002.sbt.html#001.002.047

Volume 1, Book 2, Number 47:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

One day while the Prophet was sitting in the company of some people, (The angel) Gabriel came and asked, "What is faith?" Allah's Apostle replied, 'Faith is to believe in Allah, His angels, (the) meeting with Him, His Apostles, and to believe in Resurrection." Then he further asked, "What is Islam?" Allah's Apostle replied, "To worship Allah Alone and none else, to offer prayers perfectly to pay the compulsory charity (Zakat) and to observe fasts during the month of Ramadan." Then he further asked, "What is Ihsan (perfection)?" Allah's Apostle replied, "To worship Allah as if you see Him, and if you cannot achieve this state of devotion then you must consider that He is looking at you." Then he further asked, "When will the Hour be established?" Allah's Apostle replied, "The answerer has no better knowledge than the questioner. But I will inform you about its portents.

1. When a slave (lady) gives birth to her master.

2. When the shepherds of black camels start boasting and competing with others in the construction of higher buildings. And the Hour is one of five things which nobody knows except Allah.

The Prophet then recited: "Verily, with Allah (Alone) is the knowledge of the Hour--." (31. 34) Then that man (Gabriel) left and the Prophet asked his companions to call him back, but they could not see him. Then the Prophet said, "That was Gabriel who came to teach the people their religion." Abu 'Abdullah said: He (the Prophet) considered all that as a part of faith.

Originally posted by ahosyney
GOD sent the same message to many prophets since the begining of human race. They all came with the same message.

"There is only one GOD, the creator of everything. He wants you to worship him by your choice, and to follow his law. Those who follow will gain his love and mercy. Those who don't accept his message deserve their punishment "

You don't ac He (the Prophet) considered all that as a part of faith. [/i]

I find it revealing that Islam has no significant contention with the Baha'i letter, whereas Christianity does. Why is this? Obviously because of the Good News of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

You (like Baha'i) claim that all prophets come with this same message:

"There is only one GOD, the creator of everything. He wants you to worship him by your choice, and to follow his law. Those who follow will gain his love and mercy. Those who don't accept his message deserve their punishment."

Such a claim is simply false. Jesus Christ and his apostles preached something different. They preached that faith in Jesus Christ, not obedience to God's law, is what saves a person.

Whether or not you believe faith in Jesus Christ saves, you must admit that the Good News of Christ's New Testament Gospel is certainly not what you dictate above.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
I find it revealing that Islam has no significant contention with the Baha'i letter, whereas Christianity does. Why is this? Obviously because of the Good News of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

You (like Baha'i) claim that all prophets come with this same message:

"There is only one GOD, the creator of everything. He wants you to worship him by your t the Good News of Christ's New Testament Gospel is certainly not what you dictate above.

Such a claim is simply false. Jesus Christ and his apostles preached something different. They preached that faith in Jesus Christ, not obedience to God's law, is what saves a person.

This thread is not to discuss christianity. But all what I can say is that Chritianity has nothing to do with the message of Jesus. Actually Jesus was Jew man , and he never called his message christianity, and same goes for his apostles.

When you are talking about obedience to God's law, I'm sure you are refereing to Paul, not Jesus. Jesus when asked about the eternal life he answered with my statement above. If you know that jesus said something different from my statement just show it to me.

Christianity was made up in 325c and can't be referenced to Jesus by any way.

the Good News of Christ's New Testament Gospel is certainly not what you dictate above.

(king James Version)(John)(Jn-17-3)(And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.)

(king James Version)(John)(Jn-4-23)(But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.)

(king James Version)(Mark)(Mk-12-29)(And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord🙂

(king James Version)(Matthew)(Mt-5-17,18,19,20)(Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.)

(king James Version)(John)(Jn-15-22)(If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin.)

I think all of this make all what you said not correct, if you know something else show it to me.

Originally posted by ahosyney
[b]Such a claim is simply false. Jesus Christ and his apostles preached something different. They preached that faith in Jesus Christ, not obedience to God's law, is what saves a person.

This thread is not to discuss christianity. But all what I can say is that Chritianity has nothing to do with the message of Jesus. Actually Jesus was Jew m ...[text shortened]... w it to me.

Christianity was made up in 325c and can't be referenced to Jesus by any way.[/b]

If you know that jesus said something different from my statement just show it to me.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son" (John 3:16-18).

I understand you have your own reasons for not believing Paul, or even specifically what Jesus says here, but nevertheless this is the Good News of the NT and it is at odds with the universal message which you purport all prophets share.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]If you know that jesus said something different from my statement just show it to me.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes i ...[text shortened]... NT and it is at odds with the universal message which you purport all prophets share.[/b]

I made an edit, please read it first.

----------------------------------------

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son" (John 3:16-18).

There is a lot to say about this.

First I don't think GOD loves all the world, this can't be true and doesn't make sense. Do you think GOD love Satan?

Second, Jesus is not the only son of GOD. There are many sons for GOD in the bible.

Third, Jesus like any other prophet is the way for his people. You should believe in him to gain eternal life. And beliveing in him is to follow his what he said to you. And what he said is clear, worship the only GOD and follow his law. (Read my post again).

So even if we assume this verse is correct, we can't take it literitly because it will contradict other parts of the Bible.

-----
Any prophet sent to any nation asked them to believe in him to gain eternal life, there nothing special about Jesus is this case.

---

Talking about Paul when he say something contradict what Jesus said I think I will follow Jesus.

Originally posted by ahosyney
Christianity was made up in 325c and can't be referenced to Jesus by any way.

Back up this claim.

Originally posted by whodey
Back up this claim.

Check out the 1000 posts I made replying to you before .......

Check the last 3 threads you made about the Bible, Paul and the 12 apostles.

GOD bless you..

Originally posted by ahosyney
I made an edit, please read it first.

----------------------------------------

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is no about Paul when he say something contradict what Jesus said I think I will follow Jesus.

Talking about Paul when he say something contradict what Jesus said I think I will follow Jesus.

I'm certainly not going to argue these points over again, except to say this.

You claim to believe in Jesus and follow Jesus, yet you deny precisely what he said about himself; namely, that he was to be crucified. You have said several times that Jesus was spared the cross and a false Jesus was crucified in his place, essentially making Christ's prophecy concerning himself a false one, "after two days . . . the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified" (Matt. 26:2). Not only do you deny the crucifixion, but you also deny Christ's resurrection, another of Christ's prophecies. Surely you have your motives and justifications for blatantly denying the texts, but for those of us who do believe the texts are true and accurate, there is no doubt that faith in Jesus Christ is what saves a man.

I will show you that Christ himself teaches this...

Why did Christ have to die? One of the passages which you quoted in support of your claim has the answer: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill" (Matt. 5:17). Christ fulfilled the law when he died on the cross; the purpose of his incarnation. "One jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled," and since the law was fulfilled in Christ, the old law-based covenant (which you are familiar with) has passed away. The rest of the NT epistles teaches the significance of this, bearing witness that under the new covenant, "the just shall live by faith" (Rom. 1:17).

You have no credibility interpreting NT scripture, because you blatantly disregard Christ's own claims about himself. If you disregard what Christ has to say, then of course your disregard of Paul is bound to be equally disingenuous. You might as well admit that you are merely picking and choosing what agrees with your beliefs, and denying what does not.

If, however, you were to take the word of God to be true in its entirety, as Christians do, then you will find that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is indeed radically different from the universal message which you purport all prophets share; yours is law-based (i.e. you must earn your way into heaven by obeying the law), while Christ's is grace-based (i.e. heaven is a free gift through faith).

Originally posted by ahosyney
Check out the 1000 posts I made replying to you before .......

Check the last 3 threads you made about the Bible, Paul and the 12 apostles.

GOD bless you..

Nothing you have said thus far proves anything from what I have read. I think your statement has even begun a new thread of sorts. Perhaps you would like to visit it? I think it is entitled "Hall of Shame statements".

Originally posted by whodey
Nothing you have said thus far proves anything from what I have read. I think your statement has even begun a new thread of sorts. Perhaps you would like to visit it? I think it is entitled "Hall of Shame statements".

There is nothing more could be said, after those last posts. The truth is there and I tried to show it to you as much as I can. I hope you will find it one day.

I have seen that thread of course. And I see you agree with his opinion about it. And I'm sorry for that.
---------------

My friend Varqa, I'm sorry for corrupting your thread. I really didn't mean to do that.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]Talking about Paul when he say something contradict what Jesus said I think I will follow Jesus.

I'm certainly not going to argue these points over again, except to say this.

You claim to believe in Jesus and follow Jesus, yet you deny precisely what he said about himself; namely, that he was to be crucified. You have said several times tha ...[text shortened]... he law), while Christ's is grace-based (i.e. heaven is a free gift through faith).[/b]

Again, nothing I can say.

When you add your words between different scriptures you can make them say whatever you want.

I appologize for every one,

I pray for you all to see the truth.

Salam

Originally posted by twhitehead
[b]Let's replace "belief" with "education" in your statement. Let's say we want educated people in this world. Why don't we send everyone a PhD. to their home? This way the entire world population will be well educated. Obviously this won't work. Just like education, spirituality is a rigorous process. The goal is hard to reach and must be earned.
T ...[text shortened]... things.

They are all saying the same thing.
Thats not true and you know it.[/b]

I think you missed my point.

You say why God does not teleport his book to everyone's home. I am saying that is just like sending a PhD to everyone's home. God can not force spirituality. We must choose to be spiritual and work hard at it.

You say all religions are not the same?
a)they all have a messenger
b)the messenger comes from a God or higher power
c)the messenger bring a book, the word of God
d)we are expected the follow the instructions in the book
e)the instructions are pray, fast, do unto others as you would have them do unto you
f)The book gives warning of impending doom if we do not follow it
g)the book gives promise of salvation and everlasting life if we do follow it
h)the messenger promises a return

They seem pretty similar to me.

Originally posted by ahosyney
Again, nothing I can say.

When you add your words between different scriptures you can make them say whatever you want.

I appologize for every one,

I pray for you all to see the truth.

Salam

I shall pray for you too...