1. Standard memberRajk999
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    11 Aug '13 11:37
    Here is what the Bible says:
    1. Born again Christians can and do drawback or fall away
    2. Those doing so can lose their salvation
    3. The punishment for these Christians are worse than if they were not Christians in the first place.
    4. It is impossible to obtain repentance once this happens.

    Here are supporting references:

    1. ... if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. (Hebrews 10:38 KJV)

    2. For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. (2 Pet 2:20-21)

    3. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Matthew 7:21-23 KJV)

    4. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, (Hebrews 10:26 KJV)

    5. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (Hebrews 6:4-6 KJV)


    I would be interested in hearing from those who on this site professed to be born again and who claim to be eternally saved or similar types, as hopefully you might know why and how you came to this conclusion.

    Maybe I should call some names:
    - Jaywill/Sonship
    - Checkbaiter
    - RJHinds
    - Grampy Bobby
    - Menace
    - Kelly Jay
    - Divegeester
    - RBHill
    - Sumydid
    - Others of similar ilk.

    Note: this is not about you personally. This pertains to the general church preaching that all those who accept Christ with their mouth, will be saved and saved eternally ie they cannot lose their salvation notwithstanding subsequent sins. Please refrain from discussing your personal life or personal stories of how you are saved.
  2. Standard membersonship
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    11 Aug '13 11:591 edit
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Here is what the Bible says:
    1. Born again Christians can and do drawback or fall away
    2. Those doing so can lose their salvation
    3. The punishment for these Christians are worse than if they were not Christians in the first place.
    4. It is impossible to obtain repentance once this happens.

    Here are supporting references:

    [quote] 1. ... if any man ...[text shortened]... ins. Please refrain from discussing your personal life or personal stories of how you are saved.
    You are going a long way to knock on my door.

    If I start to converse with you about this calling me out about this, you realize that you will soon withdraw and say you don't want to talk to me.

    I don't think you hold up well under careful examination.
  3. Standard memberRajk999
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    11 Aug '13 12:231 edit
    Originally posted by sonship
    You are going a long way to knock on my door.

    If I start to converse with you about this calling me out about this, you realize that you will soon withdraw and say you don't want to talk to me.

    I don't think you hold up well under careful examination.
    First 'I dont hold up well..' ? Me? Did I explain or analyse or expound or lecture etc etc? NO ! NOO!

    In this thread, I quote 5 passages from Christ and the Apostles and summarise in 4 simple lines almost verbatim what they said and these 4 lines a 5 yr old can easily understand what the Bible says.

    You typically quote 2 passages and write 20 pages on it and thats your loss because most people on this site already know that you waffle on and on, and make ridiclous conclusions that are far removed from the actual quote.

    I restate what the Bible says without personal interpretations. Try that and then we can talk.
  4. Standard membersonship
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    11 Aug '13 12:23
    1. Born again Christians can and do drawback or fall away


    You are assuming that God has NO OTHER WAY to discipline a Christian except to cause him to lose the gift of eternal redemption.

    That assumption is unbiblical and wrong period.


    2. Those doing so can lose their salvation


    The word "salvation" can refer to a few things. In the sense of the eternal redemption no backslider can lose "salvation" of the gift of eternal redemption.


    3. The punishment for these Christians are worse than if they were not Christians in the first place.


    The punishment varies during the millennial kingdom to the defeated Christian.

    When Paul writes that a believer will be saved yet so as through fire (1 Cor. 3:15) that could mean a wide range of possibilities.

    "If anyone's work is consumed , he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."

    I wouldn't test the limits of what that might mean. It is better to be overcoming and not to lose the REWARD. The GIFT cannot be lost.


    4. It is impossible to obtain repentance once this happens.


    Once eternally redeemed ALWAYS secure in eternal redemption.

    "Salvation" is related to three parts of man -

    1.) The salvation of the spirit.
    2.) The salvation of the soul.
    3.) The salvation of the body.

    First Thessalonians 5:23 "And the God of peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

    Salvation works from the inside out of the man's entire tripartite being. He may be born again and have the salvation of his spirit yet procrastinate in the salvation of his soul. Such may lose the reward because his soul has not been transformed and built up with others in love.

    Once regenerated you can never be un-born again. And if your behavior has not changed from within the last year, you will not be able to endure too long, careful scrutiny of your Arminian elevator salvation -

    "Saved this morning, lost again by noon, saved again in the evening, but fallen away at midnight, re-saved around breakfast time, but lost again forever by 10:00, etc. etc. etc."

    This is terrible teaching.
  5. Standard memberRajk999
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    11 Aug '13 12:26
    Originally posted by sonship
    1. Born again Christians can and do drawback or fall away


    You are assuming that God has NO OTHER WAY to discipline a Christian except to cause him to lose the gift of eternal redemption.

    That assumption is unbiblical and wrong period.


    2. Those doing so can lose their salvation


    The word "salvation" can refe ...[text shortened]... but lost again forever by 10:00, etc. etc. etc."

    This is terrible teaching.
    Thank goodness you did not write the Bible. The gifts of brevity and conciseness and accuracy are qualities lacking in your writing.

    Christ and the Apostles say that you are wrong. Try again.
  6. Standard membersonship
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    11 Aug '13 13:07
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Thank goodness you did not write the Bible. The gifts of brevity and conciseness and accuracy are qualities lacking in your writing.

    Christ and the Apostles say that you are wrong. Try again.
    Thank goodness you did not write the Bible. The gifts of brevity and conciseness and accuracy are qualities lacking in your writing.

    Christ and the Apostles say that you are wrong. Try again.


    You are hiding behind a complaint about brevity to conceal your inadequate careful study of Scripture.

    Like I said, you would not last long. You hide the weakness of your views behind excuses of not wanting to read.

    This is pitiful. Who do you think is being fooled ?
  7. Standard memberRajk999
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    11 Aug '13 13:31
    Originally posted by sonship
    Thank goodness you did not write the Bible. The gifts of brevity and conciseness and accuracy are qualities lacking in your writing.

    Christ and the Apostles say that you are wrong. Try again.


    You are hiding behind a complaint about brevity to conceal your inadequate careful study of Scripture.

    Like I said, you would not last lon ...[text shortened]... s behind excuses of not wanting to read.

    This is pitiful. Who do you think is being fooled ?
    Actually Jaywill, people are not fooled by your misleading twisting of the scripture. The passages I quoted are very clear. Do you have any comments on the scripture quoted in the opening post?
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    11 Aug '13 13:56
    You cannot get saved by doing good works, and you cannot undo your salvation if you sin. Your salvation and everlasting life are gifts from God. God never takes back His gift of salvation.
    The Bible is very clear about this. It says: “for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable” (Rom. 11:29).
    In the translation of the New Testament known as The Message, that verse is translated very powerfully: “God’s gifts and God’s call are under full warranty—never canceled, never rescinded.”
    Many people teach that if you sin, you lose your salvation and then you have to get saved all over again, but that is not true. God wants you to be absolutely sure that you cannot lose your salvation, so the Bible emphasizes its permanence in many ways.
    • As you have seen, salvation is called a “gift” over and over, and the Bible specifically says the gifts of God are irrevocable.
    • A term for salvation is “born again” or “new birth” (1 Pet. 1:3 and 23). We all know that birth is permanent.
    Once I am born, I am a child of my mother and father forever.
    Even if I am a horrible kid and my parents really don’t like me, the birth is permanent.
    God wants Christians to know that He loves us and that we are His children no matter how we behave, so He uses the term “birth” to describe what happens to us when we are saved.
    Birth is a one-time occurrence that cannot be undone.

    • Another term for your salvation is “adoption.”
    At first you may wonder why God would say you are “adopted” when saying you are “born” into His family seems so much more wonderful.
    The answer to that question lies in the Roman law and culture at the time the New Testament was written.
    According to Roman law, adoption into a Roman family was permanent, but a naturally born child could be disowned.
    So, in writing to the Roman people (as in the books of Romans, Ephesians, and Galatians), God used the word “adoption” so they would be sure to understand that their salvation was permanent.

    • When you are saved, God gives you holy spirit, His gift, on the inside. Because it is spirit, you can’t feel that it is within you, but it is God’s permanent seal in you that you are His child.
    Ephesians is very clear about getting saved by believing and then being sealed with holy spirit:

    Ephesians 1:13 and 14
    (13) And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised holy spirit,
    (14a) [which] ...is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance….

    Read those verses again. They are so rich. The Bible says you are sealed with holy spirit, God’s gift. Therefore, you are sealed. God’s salvation does not “leak out” if you sin. You were sealed when you believed, and that seal is a “guarantee” of eternal life, your “inheritance” with the Lord.

    • Because your salvation is permanent and you cannot lose it, God says you are His child! “How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! ...Dear friends, now we are children of God...” (1 John 3:1 and 2a).
    Surely it cannot be that one day you are a child of God and the next day you aren’t. God chose to communicate to us in the words we use in our everyday speech, and we all know that children are a permanent addition to a family.
    No one has children in his family one day and then does not have them in the family the next day. The same is true for God’s family as for our human families. God calls you His child to make the point that you are permanently in His family.
    That is also why unbelievers are never called “children” of God—they are not part of the family.
    Children have their father’s “seed” in them, and Christians are born of “imperishable seed” (1 Pet. 1:23).
    The Bible is very clear: If you are saved, you are born into God’s family, you are permanently adopted, you are sealed with holy spirit and God calls you a child of God.
  9. Standard membersonship
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    11 Aug '13 13:58
    Actually Jaywill, people are not fooled by your misleading twisting of the scripture. The passages I quoted are very clear. Do you have any comments on the scripture quoted in the opening post?


    You're too lazy to read them. You come here like you want to "warn" Christians. Actually you're just sectarian and divisive and want to argue your one-way arguments.

    I will write if you read. I may write regardless for the sake of someone else.
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    11 Aug '13 14:08
    25 Reasons Why Salvation Is Permanent For Christians

    http://www.truthortradition.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=127
  11. Standard memberRajk999
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    11 Aug '13 14:10
    Originally posted by checkbaiter
    You cannot get saved by doing good works, and you cannot undo your salvation if you sin. Your salvation and everlasting life are gifts from God. God never takes back His gift of salvation.
    The Bible is very clear about this. It says: “for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable” (Rom. 11:29).
    In the translation of the New Testament known as The Mess ...[text shortened]... , you are permanently adopted, you are sealed with holy spirit and God calls you a child of God.
    Clearly you disagree with all 5 of the references in the opening post.

    Does it bother you that you have a doctrine that is contrary to what Christ and the Apostles preached?
  12. Standard memberRajk999
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    11 Aug '13 15:27
    Originally posted by checkbaiter
    25 Reasons Why Salvation Is Permanent For Christians

    http://www.truthortradition.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=127
    This is the reason why some get led astray. They listen to the teachings of man and ignore the Bible.
  13. Standard memberRajk999
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    11 Aug '13 15:281 edit
    Originally posted by sonship
    Actually Jaywill, people are not fooled by your misleading twisting of the scripture. The passages I quoted are very clear. Do you have any comments on the scripture quoted in the opening post?


    You're too lazy to read them. You come here like you want to "warn" Christians. Actually you're just sectarian and divisive and want to argue ...[text shortened]... uments.

    I will write if you read. I may write regardless for the sake of someone else.
    Just provide a few verses. I and most people can read and understand for themselves. So far nothing you have said can hold water or make sense.
  14. Standard memberRajk999
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    11 Aug '13 15:42
    Originally posted by checkbaiter
    You cannot get saved by doing good works, and you cannot undo your salvation if you sin. Your salvation and everlasting life are gifts from God. God never takes back His gift of salvation.
    The Bible is very clear about this. It says: “for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable” (Rom. 11:29).
    In the translation of the New Testament known as The Mess ...[text shortened]... , you are permanently adopted, you are sealed with holy spirit and God calls you a child of God.
    Your statement :

    You cannot get saved by doing good works, and you cannot undo your salvation if you sin. Your salvation and everlasting life are gifts from God. God never takes back His gift of salvation.

    Cannot be derived from this :

    “for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable” (Rom. 11:29).

    The simple reason is that while God does not withdraw his gifts and his call .. the truth as stated in so many places in the opening post is that PEOPLE DO WITHDRAW. Christians who claim to have been born again or given the Holy Spirit as clearly stated by Paul CAN AND DO FALL INTO PERDITION.

    God is not withdrawing. People are withdrawing from God.

    You are missing this point, and many others as well which will come to light the more you talk.

    All of the teachings by Christ and the Apostles are correct.

    There are some who are born of God whose salvation is sealed ie they cannot lose their salvation. However this point is abused by Christianity and they try to apply it to ALL Christians.

    There are some who will claim to be born of God who will be given the Holy Spirit but they will fail and lose their salvation.
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    11 Aug '13 16:181 edit
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Your statement :

    You cannot get saved by doing good works, and you cannot undo your salvation if you sin. Your salvation and everlasting life are gifts from God. God never takes back His gift of salvation.

    Cannot be derived from this :

    “for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable” (Rom. 11:29).

    The simple reason is that while God does n ...[text shortened]... to be born of God who will be given the Holy Spirit but they will fail and lose their salvation.
    It does not matter if the person withdraws or not, the fact is that when one becomes a child of God, it cannot be undone.
    Can you "unbecome" a child of your parents? Of course not!
    Not even by disobedience.
    KJ is correct when Jesus said he holds us in his grip and NO ONE can snatch them out, not even yourself.
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