08 Jan 12
From the prophet Zechariah (Zechariah 8:7-8, 12:10 NASB)
Thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘Behold, I am going to save My people from the
land of the east and from the land of the west; and I will bring them back
and they will live in the midst of Jerusalem; and they shall be My people,
and I will be their God in truth and righteousness.’
“I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem,
the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom
they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only
son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a
firstborn."
The above scripture in one of those referred to in John 19:23-37 as having
applied to Christ on the cross. And again in Revelation 1:7 where we read
the following:
BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even
those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him.
So it is to be. Amen.
08 Jan 12
Originally posted by RJHindswell we know it can't be jesus christ.
From the prophet Zechariah (Zechariah 8:7-8, 12:10 NASB)
Thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘Behold, I am going to save My people from the
land of the east and from the land of the west; and I will bring them back
and they will live in the midst of Jerusalem; and they shall be My people,
and I will be their God in truth and righteousness.’
“I will pour ou ...[text shortened]... se who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him.
So it is to be. Amen.
"Thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘Behold, I am going to save My people from the
land of the east and from the land of the west; and I will bring them back
and they will live in the midst of Jerusalem; and they shall be My people,
and I will be their God in truth and righteousness.’"
never happened.
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08 Jan 12
Originally posted by RJHindsA person relying on a naturalistic explanation will begin with the hypothesis that the author(s) of John was/were familiar with Zechariah, and the people who later assembled the Bible were familiar with both writings. In fact the similarities about piercing will be offered as the first evidence of these connections.
From the prophet Zechariah (Zechariah 8:7-8, 12:10 NASB)
Thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘Behold, I am going to save My people from the
land of the east and from the land of the west; and I will bring them back
and they will live in the midst of Jerusalem; and they shall be My people,
and I will be their God in truth and righteousness.’
“I will pour ou ...[text shortened]... se who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him.
So it is to be. Amen.
A person relying on a supernatural explanation will of course say that any such familiarity was a manifestation (evidence) of divine guidance.
So they each go out the same doors through which they entered, self satisfied and unswayed.
08 Jan 12
Originally posted by VoidSpiritYou have heard of history, yes?
well we know it can't be jesus christ.
"Thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘Behold, I am going to save My people from the
land of the east and from the land of the west; and I will bring them back
and they will live in the midst of Jerusalem; and they shall be My people,
and I will be their God in truth and righteousness.’"
never happened.
And how the nation of Israel was restored in 1947, yes?
08 Jan 12
Originally posted by RJHindsSo what exactly is your question?
From the prophet Zechariah (Zechariah 8:7-8, 12:10 NASB)
Thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘Behold, I am going to save My people from the
land of the east and from the land of the west; and I will bring them back
and they will live in the midst of Jerusalem; and they shall be My people,
and I will be their God in truth and righteousness.’
“I will pour ou ...[text shortened]... se who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him.
So it is to be. Amen.
And why are you asking it? Don't you know?
08 Jan 12
1 edit
Originally posted by SuzianneI was hoping for an honest unbiased opinion from an atheist or agnostic
So what exactly is your question?
And why are you asking it? Don't you know?
as to who this Lord of Host refers. Then also is this Lord of Host also the
one that says, "I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants
of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they look on
Me whom they have pierced; etc... is the same.
We have the witness of the apostle John as to what he thinks. Does
that have any sway at all. I believe these scriptures are in the process
of being fulfilled. What say you?
08 Jan 12
Originally posted by RJHindsNot yet.
I was hoping for an honest unbiased opinion from an atheist or agnostic
as to who this Lord of Host refers. Then also is this Lord of Host also the
one that says, "I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants
of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they they look
on Me whom they have pierced; etc... is the same.
We ...[text shortened]... sway at all. I believe these scriptures are in the process
of being fulfilled. What say you?
The first part of the Zechariah quote, surely. But the rest is yet to come. I maintain that during the Tribulation there will be a conversion movement among the Jews that will lead many home to Christ, and that many of these new Christians will become some of the martyrs for Christ mentioned elsewhere in Revelation. And as for the Rev 1:7 quote, this is talking about His return: Christians' "second coming", but for the Jews, the first arrival of their Messiah, at the Battle of Armageddon.
08 Jan 12
Originally posted by Suziannedidn't happen in those times and it didn't happen by any doing of the messiah.
You have heard of history, yes?
And how the nation of Israel was restored in 1947, yes?
and the kingdom of israel was never restored as written in zech. jerusalem is a melting pot of religions. according to zech, there shall be no more canaanite in the house of the lord (jerusalem). probably why the jews are intent on kicking every last palestinian out.
what is supposed to happen is that the house of israel will be restored to the kingdom of israel and the house of judea will be restored to judea. what happened is the house of judea was restored to israel, judea remains unfounded, and the house of israel is nowhere to be found.
the creation of israel was christians trying to fulfill prophecy by creating israel in a clumsy manner while at the same time ridding themselves of the jewish problem. the jews of course went along with it because they could once again steal land that belonged to someone else.
other things that failed according to zech which must also happen "in those days":
-no temple was rebuilt
-we never had a time where there was no hire for men and beasts
-everybody is not converting to judaism.
-whoever does not make a pilgrimage to jerusalem is not punished, nor are their nations punished.
and then we have the failure of the tyre prophesy.
zechariah is just one giant failure of a book.
08 Jan 12
Originally posted by Suzianneaccording to zechariah, everybody will convert to judaism, not to some foreign roman religion.
Not yet.
The first part of the Zechariah quote, surely. But the rest is yet to come. I maintain that during the Tribulation there will be a conversion movement among the Jews that will lead many home to Christ, and that many of these new Christians will become some of the martyrs for Christ mentioned elsewhere in Revelation. And as for the Rev 1:7 quo ...[text shortened]... d coming", but for the Jews, the first arrival of their Messiah, at the Battle of Armageddon.
08 Jan 12
Originally posted by SuzianneBut who is the Lord of Host and is the Lord of Host the one that is pierced?
Not yet.
The first part of the Zechariah quote, surely. But the rest is yet to come. I maintain that during the Tribulation there will be a conversion movement among the Jews that will lead many home to Christ, and that many of these new Christians will become some of the martyrs for Christ mentioned elsewhere in Revelation. And as for the Rev 1:7 quo ...[text shortened]... d coming", but for the Jews, the first arrival of their Messiah, at the Battle of Armageddon.
08 Jan 12
Originally posted by VoidSpiritI agree that the Christians trying to restore Israel was indeed an effort by them to fulfill prophecy, possibly in order to bring about the end times.
the creation of israel was christians trying to fulfill prophecy by creating israel in a clumsy manner while at the same time ridding themselves of the jewish problem. the jews of course went along with it because they could once again steal land that belonged to someone else.
However, it was tried three times within the last 1000 years to restore Israel, and the first two of those times failed because it was not yet time.
And I can see by your last comments that you are among the many who have swallowed the Muslim lie that they owned the land prior to the creation of Israel, when this is patently untrue.
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08 Jan 12
Originally posted by VoidSpiritYou can choose to ignore or refudiate truth , but that does not make it un true. You choose not to see the truth. It did happen.
didn't happen in those times and it didn't happen by any doing of the messiah.
and the kingdom of israel was never restored as written in zech. jerusalem is a melting pot of religions. according to zech, there shall be no more canaanite in the house of the lord (jerusalem). probably why the jews are intent on kicking every last palestinian out.
...[text shortened]... en we have the failure of the tyre prophesy.
zechariah is just one giant failure of a book.
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08 Jan 12
Originally posted by RJHindsWell here's a non-theistic view I could imagine being offered to you. According to Wikipedia, Zechariah was said to be a prophet of the Kingdom of Judah who started his prophetical career around 520 BC, so I suppose the Lord of Host referred to a deity, perhaps the sole deity, of that people at that time. Since the things attributed to deities change over time, it seems presumptuous to say that the things they attributed to the LoH would also describe some other depiction a LoH or a god of a later or different people. For example comparing it to to John's depiction, I'd think the people of the Kingdom of Judah would not agree that the god to which they referred, was the god that the Word was with, and that the Word was, and that made the Word man,and the other depictions of these two in one entities, that is mentioned in John. I think that notion of God made man would have been unknown to them, and they would have rejected it. But my speculation would yield to archeological and other findings.
I was hoping for an honest unbiased opinion from an atheist or agnostic
as to who this Lord of Host refers. Then also is this Lord of Host also the
one that says, "I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants
of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they look on
Me whom they have pierced; etc... is the same.
We have ...[text shortened]... sway at all. I believe these scriptures are in the process
of being fulfilled. What say you?
Of course you need to be a theist to believe there is a deity, one sole deity, behind the various personas of the deities of the peoples over that time period.
As to prophesies being fulfilled, I tend to think that any reasonably educated person can predict the kind of events that will occur time and again in the world, and if you wait long enough, many of them will be. For example, lots of martyrs get pierced. And things get embroidered about their deaths, too.