Why we fell down to this material world.

The following verse shall tell you why you are in this world of birth, disease, old age and death.

First of all we strongly suggest those who have a specific interest in the
falldown of the spirit soul from the spiritual world to acquire the book entitled
Our Original Position, which is available from the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. It is
a very elaborate treatment with much quotations from sastra.
I find a refrain in the "condemned," "pretty unfair," "felix culpa," "how could I
know" and "bad mistake" arguments that is typical of persons for whom the
"original falldown" is a major philosophical stumbling block. And that is, "It's not
my fault. It must be Krishna's fault."
You have to face this point unflinchingly: it *is* your fault.
And you have to face this next point unflinchingly: as long as you entertain the
notion that it could be Krishna's fault (that He's "pretty unfair"😉, you will remain
in this material world, birth after birth.
Accepting that it is your fault that you are fallen into the cycle of birth and
death is what surrender is all about. It is only by accepting this that we can
sincerely accept the Lord's help in getting ourselves delivered from this fallen
state. Logically, if it is not your fault, then you are not really fallen. Just like, if
you end up in prison for a crime you did not deliberately commit (maybe you
were just a victim of association, but you personally did not intend harm), then
you are not really a criminal, are you?
But the fact is, we *are* criminals. And we can't be reformed until we admit it
wholeheartedly.
Now, zeroing in on the crux of your doubt -- that we fell out of krishna-lila
because of some unexpected flare-up of envy, and so how can we be eternally
condemned for something over which we had no control -- you've missed the
real controller, Krishna. It is a fact that I, as a tiny spirit soul, have no power to
control the ebb and flow of emotional states. But Krishna, the parama-isvara
(supreme controller), does.
So there are two implications I wish to draw your attention to.
If your idea is that we fell because of an emotional flare-up, then behind that
idea is a lack of faith in Krishna's control over those emotions. To be surrendered
to Krishna means to place oneself completely under Krishna's control. So why
would Krishna permit the emotions of His surrendered devotee to flare up in
some spiritually detrimental manner? Therefore, 1) either Krishna doesn't really
have control over the ebb and flow of emotions that affect living beings, or 2) He
does but He takes pleasure in allowing these emotions to cast someone down
into darkness. I.e. Krishna doesn't always have our best interests in mind. Or
worse, He has a malicious streak.
The adoption of either of these two positions is uncalled for. If you find one,
the other or both reasonable, then why trouble yourself with following the Vedic
scriptures? The Vedic scriptures state: isvara parama krsna: "Krishna is the
supreme controller."
So then how did we fall victim to uncontrolled emotions?
The answer is that *first* we assumed a position of independence from
Krishna's control. Our assuming that position was not prompted by some flood of
emotions. It was a conscious choice. As Srila Prabhupada writes:
"Anandamayo 'bhyasat (Vedanta-sutra 1.1.12). Both the Lord and the living
entity, being qualitatively spirit soul, have the tendency for peaceful enjoyment,
but when the part of the Supreme Personality of Godhead unfortunately wants to
enjoy independently, without Krishna, he is put into the material world, where he
begins his life as Brahma and is gradually degraded to the status of an ant or a
worm in stool." (Srimad-Bhagavatam 9.24.58, purport)
So the uncontrolled emotions that wind us up in lower forms like ants and
worms come later. First comes the exalted post of Brahma, who manifests the
full potency of a jiva (a liberated spirit soul). Brahma is situated in brahmavarcasa,
the Brahman effulgence. Therefore Bhagavatam 2.3.2 states that those
who wish to attain the divine light of Brahman should worship Brahma. But
Brahma thinks himself *independent* of Krishna.
"That Brahma becomes liberated is known to everyone, but he cannot liberate
his devotees. Demigods like Brahma and Lord Shiva cannot give liberation to any
living entity. As it is confirmed in Bhagavad-gita, only one who surrenders unto
Krishna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, can be liberated from the clutches
of maya. Brahma is called here adyah sthira-caranam. He is the original, firstcreated
living entity, and after his own birth he creates the entire cosmic
manifestation. He was fully instructed in the matter of creation by the Supreme
Lord. Here he is called veda-garbha, which means that he knows the complete
purpose of the Vedas. He is always accompanied by such great personalities as
Marici, Kasyapa and the seven sages, as well as by great mystic yogis, the
Kumaras and many other spiritually advanced living entities, but he has his own
interest, separate from the Lord's. Bheda-drstya means that Brahma sometimes
thinks that he is independent of the Supreme Lord, or he thinks of himself as one
of the three equally independent incarnations. ["Three equally independent
incarnations" means Vishnu, Shiva and Brahma... but actually Brahma is not
independent, because he is a jiva (fragmental soul, a constitutional servant of
God), whereas Vishnu and Shiva are both classified as isvara (Lords).]" (Srimad-
Bhagavatam 3.32.12-15, purport)
And, so, as Srila Prabhupada continues in this same purport:
"Here the word bheda-drstya occurs because Brahma has a slight inclination to
think that he is as independent as Rudra. Sometimes Brahma thinks that he is
independent of the Supreme Lord, and the worshiper also thinks that Brahma is
independent. For this reason, after the destruction of this material world, when
there is again creation by the interaction of the material modes of nature,
Brahma comes back. Although Brahma reaches the Supreme Personality of
Godhead as the first purusa incarnation, Maha-Vishnu, who is full with
transcendental qualities, he cannot stay in the spiritual world."
Please digest the full implications of the above quotation. Brahma, the post
occupied by the jiva upon his assumption of independence from the Lord, is a
liberated personality. He is not dashed here and there by hot fluxes of emotions,
whether envy or anything else. Brahma *knows* fully well the Supreme Lord as
Maha-Vishnu. He returns to Him after his period of duty as the creator of the
universe. But Brahma also has a tendency, due to his conception of
independence, to become attached to his post as the creator... so that when
again Vishnu breathes out the universes, Brahma leaves Him to take up the post
of a lord of creation again. This second returning to the material world is
considered to be his falldown -- the falldown of the jiva. Here you see an
emotional element creeping in... attachment, prestige, etc, which brings him
back to the material world even after his assignment is completed. This is the
sign of growing ignorance. That is confirmed thusly later in the same purport:
"The specific significance of his coming back may be noted. Brahma and the
great rsis and the great master of yoga (Shiva) are not ordinary living entities;
they are very powerful and have all the perfections of mystic yoga. But still they
have an inclination to try to become one with the Supreme, and therefore they
have to come back. In the Srimad-Bhagavatam it is accepted that as long as one
thinks that he is equal with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is not
completely purified or knowledgeable. In spite of going up to the first purusaavatar,
Maha-Vishnu, after the dissolution of this material creation, such
personalities again fall down or come back to the material creation."
The falling down of the jiva into material creation therefore has little in
common with the scenario of his being carried away willy-nilly by some
unfortunate gush of feelings.
It is the result of a deliberate, conscious and informed choice.
Perhaps you still have a doubt about how a soul comes to think himself
independent. It can be postulated that before he assumed the post of Brahma,
that soul must have been with Krishna in His pastimes within the eternal realm of
Goloka. How is it that this particular soul goes from there to the post of Brahma?
The answer is that Krishna's pastimes are expansive. As Krishna expands His
pastimes, so also the souls expand within Him into further realms of His divine
lila or play. The creation of the material world is one more expanded lila. Thus
the Lord Himself personally enters the material world, and so also do His
devotees. Even the eternal residents of Goloka Vrindavan enter the material
world at the time Krishna personally descends Himself, as He did 5000 years ago
in Bhauma Vrindavan (the Vrindavan on earth, in India, 90 miles south of New
Delhi). Some of these residents assume forms different than their Goloka
identities. Narada Muni, for instance, the sage who preaches bhakti throughout
the 3 worlds, is originally Madhumangala, a friend of Krishna's in Goloka. And
Narada is the son of Brahma. Brahma is a role a jiva can get in the Lord's
pastime of creation if that jiva is interested in participating in the creation-lila
from a position apparently as independent as that of God Himself. This particular
position (Brahma) is the one from which a soul *may* fall (it is not guaranteed
he will) from the Lord's association into enmeshment in creation. In other words,
rather than simply participating in creation from a transcendental position (as do
the residents of Vrindavan and Narada Muni), such a soul, by attachment to his
lordly position, becomes *part* of the creation... life after life.

Originally posted by Dasa

Krishna doesn't always have our best interests in mind. Or
worse, He has a malicious streak.

Originally posted by sonship

Krishna doesn't always have our best interests in mind. Or
worse, He has a malicious streak.

Is there moral imperfection in Krishna then ?

In the parlance of the Christian faith, is Krishna a sinner too ?

Originally posted by Dasa
Krsna is God.

How can there be imperfection ?

Krsna enjoys unlimited pastimes with his devotee's.

Krsna enjoys tricking his devotees (practical joker)

The devotees are not aware that Krsna is God, but think Krsna is just simply an amazing person/friend and they play with Krsna (Krsna likes it that way.) just like when Michael Jackson goes undercov ...[text shortened]... u.

Krsna has unlimited incarnations so as he can enjoy variegated pastimes with his devotees

Originally posted by sonhouse
Does he have other life forms in the universe he cavorts with? Surely humans can't be the only intelligence in the universe?

Originally posted by Dasa
There are unlimited planets in the universe and there are unlimited universes in the material cosmos.

Science can only observe 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000285439.....................of this galaxy, and even when they do observe they are restricted in some way to observe properly.

Then we have the spiritual realm with its unl ...[text shortened]... ited avenues for enjoyment for the very intelligent inhabitant's who live for there 10.000years.

Originally posted by Dasa
Krsna is God.

How can there be imperfection ?

Krsna enjoys unlimited pastimes with his devotee's.

Krsna enjoys tricking his devotees (practical joker)

The devotees are not aware that Krsna is God, but think Krsna is just simply an amazing person/friend and they play with Krsna (Krsna likes it that way.) just like when Michael Jackson goes undercov ...[text shortened]... u.

Krsna has unlimited incarnations so as he can enjoy variegated pastimes with his devotees