1. Standard memberDasa
    Dasa
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    28 Sep '15 15:35
    The following verse shall tell you why you are in this world of birth, disease, old age and death.

    First of all we strongly suggest those who have a specific interest in the
    falldown of the spirit soul from the spiritual world to acquire the book entitled
    Our Original Position, which is available from the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. It is
    a very elaborate treatment with much quotations from sastra.
    I find a refrain in the "condemned," "pretty unfair," "felix culpa," "how could I
    know" and "bad mistake" arguments that is typical of persons for whom the
    "original falldown" is a major philosophical stumbling block. And that is, "It's not
    my fault. It must be Krishna's fault."
    You have to face this point unflinchingly: it *is* your fault.
    And you have to face this next point unflinchingly: as long as you entertain the
    notion that it could be Krishna's fault (that He's "pretty unfair"😉, you will remain
    in this material world, birth after birth.
    Accepting that it is your fault that you are fallen into the cycle of birth and
    death is what surrender is all about. It is only by accepting this that we can
    sincerely accept the Lord's help in getting ourselves delivered from this fallen
    state. Logically, if it is not your fault, then you are not really fallen. Just like, if
    you end up in prison for a crime you did not deliberately commit (maybe you
    were just a victim of association, but you personally did not intend harm), then
    you are not really a criminal, are you?
    But the fact is, we *are* criminals. And we can't be reformed until we admit it
    wholeheartedly.
    Now, zeroing in on the crux of your doubt -- that we fell out of krishna-lila
    because of some unexpected flare-up of envy, and so how can we be eternally
    condemned for something over which we had no control -- you've missed the
    real controller, Krishna. It is a fact that I, as a tiny spirit soul, have no power to
    control the ebb and flow of emotional states. But Krishna, the parama-isvara
    (supreme controller), does.
    So there are two implications I wish to draw your attention to.
    If your idea is that we fell because of an emotional flare-up, then behind that
    idea is a lack of faith in Krishna's control over those emotions. To be surrendered
    to Krishna means to place oneself completely under Krishna's control. So why
    would Krishna permit the emotions of His surrendered devotee to flare up in
    some spiritually detrimental manner? Therefore, 1) either Krishna doesn't really
    have control over the ebb and flow of emotions that affect living beings, or 2) He
    does but He takes pleasure in allowing these emotions to cast someone down
    into darkness. I.e. Krishna doesn't always have our best interests in mind. Or
    worse, He has a malicious streak.
    The adoption of either of these two positions is uncalled for. If you find one,
    the other or both reasonable, then why trouble yourself with following the Vedic
    scriptures? The Vedic scriptures state: isvara parama krsna: "Krishna is the
    supreme controller."
    So then how did we fall victim to uncontrolled emotions?
    The answer is that *first* we assumed a position of independence from
    Krishna's control. Our assuming that position was not prompted by some flood of
    emotions. It was a conscious choice. As Srila Prabhupada writes:
    "Anandamayo 'bhyasat (Vedanta-sutra 1.1.12). Both the Lord and the living
    entity, being qualitatively spirit soul, have the tendency for peaceful enjoyment,
    but when the part of the Supreme Personality of Godhead unfortunately wants to
    enjoy independently, without Krishna, he is put into the material world, where he
    begins his life as Brahma and is gradually degraded to the status of an ant or a
    worm in stool." (Srimad-Bhagavatam 9.24.58, purport)
    So the uncontrolled emotions that wind us up in lower forms like ants and
    worms come later. First comes the exalted post of Brahma, who manifests the
    full potency of a jiva (a liberated spirit soul). Brahma is situated in brahmavarcasa,
    the Brahman effulgence. Therefore Bhagavatam 2.3.2 states that those
    who wish to attain the divine light of Brahman should worship Brahma. But
    Brahma thinks himself *independent* of Krishna.
    "That Brahma becomes liberated is known to everyone, but he cannot liberate
    his devotees. Demigods like Brahma and Lord Shiva cannot give liberation to any
    living entity. As it is confirmed in Bhagavad-gita, only one who surrenders unto
    Krishna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, can be liberated from the clutches
    of maya. Brahma is called here adyah sthira-caranam. He is the original, firstcreated
    living entity, and after his own birth he creates the entire cosmic
    manifestation. He was fully instructed in the matter of creation by the Supreme
    Lord. Here he is called veda-garbha, which means that he knows the complete
    purpose of the Vedas. He is always accompanied by such great personalities as
    Marici, Kasyapa and the seven sages, as well as by great mystic yogis, the
    Kumaras and many other spiritually advanced living entities, but he has his own
    interest, separate from the Lord's. Bheda-drstya means that Brahma sometimes
    thinks that he is independent of the Supreme Lord, or he thinks of himself as one
    of the three equally independent incarnations. ["Three equally independent
    incarnations" means Vishnu, Shiva and Brahma... but actually Brahma is not
    independent, because he is a jiva (fragmental soul, a constitutional servant of
    God), whereas Vishnu and Shiva are both classified as isvara (Lords).]" (Srimad-
    Bhagavatam 3.32.12-15, purport)
    And, so, as Srila Prabhupada continues in this same purport:
    "Here the word bheda-drstya occurs because Brahma has a slight inclination to
    think that he is as independent as Rudra. Sometimes Brahma thinks that he is
    independent of the Supreme Lord, and the worshiper also thinks that Brahma is
    independent. For this reason, after the destruction of this material world, when
    there is again creation by the interaction of the material modes of nature,
    Brahma comes back. Although Brahma reaches the Supreme Personality of
    Godhead as the first purusa incarnation, Maha-Vishnu, who is full with
    transcendental qualities, he cannot stay in the spiritual world."
    Please digest the full implications of the above quotation. Brahma, the post
    occupied by the jiva upon his assumption of independence from the Lord, is a
    liberated personality. He is not dashed here and there by hot fluxes of emotions,
    whether envy or anything else. Brahma *knows* fully well the Supreme Lord as
    Maha-Vishnu. He returns to Him after his period of duty as the creator of the
    universe. But Brahma also has a tendency, due to his conception of
    independence, to become attached to his post as the creator... so that when
    again Vishnu breathes out the universes, Brahma leaves Him to take up the post
    of a lord of creation again. This second returning to the material world is
    considered to be his falldown -- the falldown of the jiva. Here you see an
    emotional element creeping in... attachment, prestige, etc, which brings him
    back to the material world even after his assignment is completed. This is the
    sign of growing ignorance. That is confirmed thusly later in the same purport:
    "The specific significance of his coming back may be noted. Brahma and the
    great rsis and the great master of yoga (Shiva) are not ordinary living entities;
    they are very powerful and have all the perfections of mystic yoga. But still they
    have an inclination to try to become one with the Supreme, and therefore they
    have to come back. In the Srimad-Bhagavatam it is accepted that as long as one
    thinks that he is equal with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is not
    completely purified or knowledgeable. In spite of going up to the first purusaavatar,
    Maha-Vishnu, after the dissolution of this material creation, such
    personalities again fall down or come back to the material creation."
    The falling down of the jiva into material creation therefore has little in
    common with the scenario of his being carried away willy-nilly by some
    unfortunate gush of feelings.
    It is the result of a deliberate, conscious and informed choice.
    Perhaps you still have a doubt about how a soul comes to think himself
    independent. It can be postulated that before he assumed the post of Brahma,
    that soul must have been with Krishna in His pastimes within the eternal realm of
    Goloka. How is it that this particular soul goes from there to the post of Brahma?
    The answer is that Krishna's pastimes are expansive. As Krishna expands His
    pastimes, so also the souls expand within Him into further realms of His divine
    lila or play. The creation of the material world is one more expanded lila. Thus
    the Lord Himself personally enters the material world, and so also do His
    devotees. Even the eternal residents of Goloka Vrindavan enter the material
    world at the time Krishna personally descends Himself, as He did 5000 years ago
    in Bhauma Vrindavan (the Vrindavan on earth, in India, 90 miles south of New
    Delhi). Some of these residents assume forms different than their Goloka
    identities. Narada Muni, for instance, the sage who preaches bhakti throughout
    the 3 worlds, is originally Madhumangala, a friend of Krishna's in Goloka. And
    Narada is the son of Brahma. Brahma is a role a jiva can get in the Lord's
    pastime of creation if that jiva is interested in participating in the creation-lila
    from a position apparently as independent as that of God Himself. This particular
    position (Brahma) is the one from which a soul *may* fall (it is not guaranteed
    he will) from the Lord's association into enmeshment in creation. In other words,
    rather than simply participating in creation from a transcendental position (as do
    the residents of Vrindavan and Narada Muni), such a soul, by attachment to his
    lordly position, becomes *part* of the creation... life after life.
  2. Standard membersonship
    the corrected one.
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    28 Sep '15 18:021 edit
    Originally posted by Dasa
    Krishna doesn't always have our best interests in mind. Or
    worse, He has a malicious streak.


    Is there moral imperfection in Krishna then ?

    In the parlance of the Christian faith, is Krishna a sinner too ?
  3. Standard memberDasa
    Dasa
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    28 Sep '15 19:57
    Originally posted by sonship
    Krishna doesn't always have our best interests in mind. Or
    worse, He has a malicious streak.


    Is there moral imperfection in Krishna then ?

    In the parlance of the Christian faith, is Krishna a sinner too ?
    Krsna is God.

    How can there be imperfection ?

    Krsna enjoys unlimited pastimes with his devotee's.

    Krsna enjoys tricking his devotees (practical joker)

    The devotees are not aware that Krsna is God, but think Krsna is just simply an amazing person/friend and they play with Krsna (Krsna likes it that way.) just like when Michael Jackson goes undercover with a beard to enjoy his different pastimes.

    If you want to worship Krsna as God, then the devotees can go to the Vishnu planets where the devotees worship Lord Vishnu in awe and reference.

    Vishnu is Krsna.

    Krsna incarnates as Vishnu.

    Krsna has unlimited incarnations so as he can enjoy variegated pastimes with his devotees
  4. Subscribersonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    slatington, pa, usa
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    28 Sep '15 21:05
    Originally posted by Dasa
    Krsna is God.

    How can there be imperfection ?

    Krsna enjoys unlimited pastimes with his devotee's.

    Krsna enjoys tricking his devotees (practical joker)

    The devotees are not aware that Krsna is God, but think Krsna is just simply an amazing person/friend and they play with Krsna (Krsna likes it that way.) just like when Michael Jackson goes undercov ...[text shortened]... u.

    Krsna has unlimited incarnations so as he can enjoy variegated pastimes with his devotees
    Does he have other life forms in the universe he cavorts with? Surely humans can't be the only intelligence in the universe?
  5. Standard memberDasa
    Dasa
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    30 Sep '15 14:21
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    Does he have other life forms in the universe he cavorts with? Surely humans can't be the only intelligence in the universe?
    There are unlimited planets in the universe and there are unlimited universes in the material cosmos.

    Science can only observe 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000285439.....................of this galaxy, and even when they do observe they are restricted in some way to observe properly.

    Then we have the spiritual realm with its unlimited spiritual planets.

    Therefore Krsna when he expands himself to become unlimited Vishnu's, he can now enjoy unlimited relationships in every part of the material and spiritual realms simultaneously.

    In the upper realms of this universe there are planets where there is unlimited avenues for enjoyment for the very intelligent inhabitant's who live for there 10.000years.
  6. Subscribersonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    slatington, pa, usa
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    30 Sep '15 17:41
    Originally posted by Dasa
    There are unlimited planets in the universe and there are unlimited universes in the material cosmos.

    Science can only observe 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000285439.....................of this galaxy, and even when they do observe they are restricted in some way to observe properly.

    Then we have the spiritual realm with its unl ...[text shortened]... ited avenues for enjoyment for the very intelligent inhabitant's who live for there 10.000years.
    They live 10.000 years? Not a second more than ten years. Poor people.
  7. Mar-a-Lago
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    30 Sep '15 18:33
    Originally posted by Dasa
    Krsna is God.

    How can there be imperfection ?

    Krsna enjoys unlimited pastimes with his devotee's.

    Krsna enjoys tricking his devotees (practical joker)

    The devotees are not aware that Krsna is God, but think Krsna is just simply an amazing person/friend and they play with Krsna (Krsna likes it that way.) just like when Michael Jackson goes undercov ...[text shortened]... u.

    Krsna has unlimited incarnations so as he can enjoy variegated pastimes with his devotees
    Well, I like Thriller and Billy Jean so I might get along with this Krishna joker.
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