Without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness

Originally posted by josephw
[b]And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. KJV

With a translation like the one you quoted from it's no wonder you're confused.

How can you possibly say that it seems inconsistent with the Old Testament? They slaughtered millions of animals and spilt oceans of blood to 'cover' their sin ...[text shortened]... mind? Do you have something in mind? Then spit it out and quit trying to muddle the truth.[/b]

How can you possibly say that it seems inconsistent with the Old Testament?

Are you asserting that it was required? Can you back it up with verses from the OT?

Originally posted by jaywill
There is no forgiveness without sin being judged by God. There is no sin that is not judged by God. God forgives but the sin commited must be judged.

When the Son of God was upon the cross, He prayed to His Father, [b]"Father forgive them, for they do not know what they do."

Since there is no forgiveness without the judging of sin, the iever. And substitution takes place upon the believer's faith in the Son of God.[/b]

Surely you must realize that you haven't addressed the topic of this thread.

How about it? Do you agree with Hebrews 9:22? Why or why not? What OT verses support your position?

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
I think the only virtuous interpretation of this is to see it as an observation, not a moral statement.

When evil occurs, innocent blood is shed.

That innocent blood can be protected by warriors shedding their own innocent blood.

Or it can be protected by people like Rachel Corrie or Jesus, who allow their own blood to be shed without violence.

What is the tie to "forgiveness"? What OT verses support your position?

Originally posted by JS357
The title of this thread is: "Without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness"

The OP Said: "Hebrews 9 22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness"

I said: "My aunt's suicide note included this passage."

The passage is Hebrews 9: 22.

I also said "She wa ...[text shortened]... s, and tend to the matter if needed.

I will try to be more clear in the future.

That must have been difficult for your family to deal with. Assuming you're now an adult, you might want to ask your parents about it if not knowing the details is disturbing to you. There's often a wide gulf between what a parent will tell an adult as opposed to a young child.

Your post WAS clear except for your seeming expectation that the reader would necessarily infer that "her suicide involved blood".

Originally posted by JS357
Read what I said over to find out if I said her note mentioned being a twin. The passage she mentioned was Hebrews 9:22.

I can see that absolute rock solid clarity is required on this forum.

I am finally getting back to this thread. I think I understand some of
what you are saying now. But why did you make the statement,
"She was my dad's fraternal twin." What does it have to do with the
suicide note then?

Up.

Anyone committed to truth enough to put the Bible into the light, i.e., under close scrutiny?

Originally posted by RJHinds
I am finally getting back to this thread. I think I understand some of
what you are saying now. But why did you make the statement,
"She was my dad's fraternal twin." What does it have to do with the
suicide note then?

To me, who knew them, it underscores how differently people, even twins, can interpret scripture, so the verse in question has to be carefully taught about. But I knew my dad, and you didn't, and I didn't explain why it mattered to me that they were twins. As I said, I will try to be more clear.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Up.

Anyone committed to truth enough to put the Bible into the light, i.e., under close scrutiny?

I said, "How can you possibly say that [it] seems inconsistent with the Old Testament?"

You said, "Are you asserting that it was required? Can you back it up with verses from the OT?"


Genesis 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

That is where it began.

Exodus 8:27 - We will go three days' journey into the wilderness, and sacrifice to the LORD our God, as he shall command us.

I don't have time now to go into more detail.


"Anyone committed to truth enough to put the Bible into the light, i.e., under close scrutiny?"

Are you?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
That must have been difficult for your family to deal with. Assuming you're now an adult, you might want to ask your parents about it if not knowing the details is disturbing to you. There's often a wide gulf between what a parent will tell an adult as opposed to a young child.

Your post WAS clear except for your seeming expectation that the reader would necessarily infer that "her suicide involved blood".

Thank you for the suggestion. I could find out more by various means but not knowing any more details is not disturbing to me. My parents have passed away, by natural means, but I have 2 older brothers and a sister I could ask. I just might, so thanks again.

Originally posted by josephw
I said, "How can you possibly say that [it] seems inconsistent with the Old Testament?"

You said, "Are you asserting that it was required? Can you back it up with verses from the OT?"


Genesis 3:21 [b]Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

That is where it began.

Exodus 8:27 - We will go uth enough to put the Bible into the light, i.e., under close scrutiny?"

Are you?[/b]

Neither of those indicates that a shedding of blood was REQUIRED for forgiveness.

The following are but a couple of many that indicate that it was not required:
Isaiah 55
7Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Ezekiel 18
21But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

Originally posted by JS357
Thank you for the suggestion. I could find out more by various means but not knowing any more details is not disturbing to me. My parents have passed away, by natural means, but I have 2 older brothers and a sister I could ask. I just might, so thanks again.

You're welcome.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Neither of those indicates that a shedding of blood was REQUIRED for forgiveness.

The following are but a couple of many that indicate that it was not required:
Isaiah 55
7Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pard ...[text shortened]... ted, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

Ezekiel 18:21
But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Why don't you tell me what is required for forgiveness. And while you're at it, please explain what all the animal sacrifices were for.

And please explain why Jesus was crucified.

Originally posted by josephw
Ezekiel 18:21
But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, [b]and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Why don't you tell me what is required for forgiveness. And while you're at it, please explain what all the animal sacrifices were for.

And please explain why Jesus was crucified.[/b]

How about if we fully address this topic before moving on to other things?

First of all, you still haven't provided verses from the OT that show that "shedding of blood was REQUIRED for forgiveness." It seemed like you started to do so and then stopped. Do you still intend to do so? If so, then can you show them now?

Seems like what I quoted from Isaiah and Ezekiel explained what was required and were really straightforward. Not sure what you're asking. As for "animal sacrifices", they were pretty much limited to unintentional sins. See Leviticus 4. Also consider that sacrifice was not the preference. Here a but a couple of examples:
Proverbs 21
3To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.
1 Samuel 15
22And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.