Originally posted by BigDoggProblem However, [b]fraudulent deception in baseball is not usually accepted or even allowed. One of your examples, Gaylord Perry, was ejected for throwing a spitball.
Rick Honeycutt of the LA Dodgers got caught using a thumbtack to scratch the cover of the ball, and was ...[text shortened]... creation and enforcement of rules shows that baseball in fact wishes to condemn such behavior.[/b]
I thought this thread was about "cheaters" not being allowed in the Hall of Fame. Everyone knew Gaylord Perry and others were throwing balls with foreign substances on them, yet these players were allowed in the Hall of Fame. Care to tell me what is the difference between them and McGwire? Care to tell me what "fradulent deception" McGwire engaged in?
Originally posted by no1marauder I thought this thread was about "cheaters" not being allowed in the Hall of Fame. Everyone knew Gaylord Perry and others were throwing balls with foreign substances on them, yet these players were allowed in the Hall of Fame. Care to tell me what is the difference between them and McGwire? Care to tell me what "fradulent deception" McGwire engaged in?
IMO, Perry should not have been inducted into the Hall if it was so obvious he was a cheat. But that vote was 15 years ago, and it's a bit late to speak of undoing it now.
McGwire deceived and defrauded fans by claiming that weight training was the source of his newfound strength. He knew damn well his big Home Run race wouldn't have gone over with fans if he admitted he was on the juice. He refused to testify before Congress (essentially pleading the 5th). He used a federally banned substance (thereby violating one of those inconvenient rules outside of baseball).
Edit: Looks like there have been federal criminal penalties for use of 'roids starting in 1988:
Originally posted by BigDoggProblem IMO, Perry should not have been inducted into the Hall if it was so obvious he was a cheat. But that vote was 15 years ago, and it's a bit late to speak of undoing it now.
McGwire deceived and defrauded fans by claiming that weight training was the source of his newfound strength. He knew damn well his big Home Run race wouldn't have gone over with ...[text shortened]... ing in 1988:
Obviously fans weren't "cheated" of anything. The home run chase probably was the biggest reason baseball rebounded after the mid 1990's strike. I doubt most fans would have cared; it's mostly self-righteous whiny sportswriters even now doing the bellyaching.
Guess I missed McGwire's indictment, trial, conviction and sentencing. I think Babe Ruth and most of the players in the 20's used a "federally banned substance".
LaRussa is the most self interested guy there is. His two star players Canseco and McGwire are two of the biggest symbols there is. A trial isn't the only way to gather evidence. For example, a lot of people think OJ is guilty in spite of the trial.
Originally posted by Bobla45 McGwire cant get in, but not for the obvious reason. Big Mac is dirty to be sure, but the average fan can forgive him because he put a charge back in the game. But if they slide him in, they have to put Bonds in too. And there is no way that is going to happen. So tough luck Mark
If they are going to let people like Bonds get in or even McGuire, then they need to let someone like Pete Rose in! Pete Rose deserves it just as much as some of these guys today if not more!
Originally posted by no1marauder Guess I missed McGwire's indictment, trial, conviction and sentencing. I think Babe Ruth and most of the players in the 20's used a "federally banned substance".
You mean alcohol? Alcohol doesn't enhance athletic ability - quite the opposite, in fact.
Originally posted by BigDoggProblem You mean alcohol? Alcohol doesn't enhance athletic ability - quite the opposite, in fact.
No one said it did. However, YOU made this point as part of your justification for claiming Mac is a "cheater":
He used a federally banned substance (thereby violating one of those inconvenient rules outside of baseball).
The same rationale could be applied to those players (probably 90% of those playing in the 20's) who used alcohol during Prohibition. It was an "inconvenient rule outside of baseball" wasn't it?
Originally posted by no1marauder No one said it did. However, YOU made this point as part of your justification for claiming Mac is a "cheater":
He used a federally banned substance (thereby violating one of those inconvenient rules outside of baseball).
The same rationale could be applied to those players (probably 90% of those playing in the 20's) who used alcohol during Prohibition. It was an "inconvenient rule outside of baseball" wasn't it?
Yes, as part of the justification, not all of it. I wouldn't call a marijuana-using player a cheat, but I might call him a criminal. The key difference is that there is no evidence that marijuana improves performance on the field.
Originally posted by BigDoggProblem Yes, as part of the justification, not all of it. I wouldn't call a marijuana-using player a cheat, but I might call him a criminal. The key difference is that there is no evidence that marijuana improves performance on the field.
That's "key" how again? Actually, steroids don't improve performance on the field either.
you gotta be kidding steriods don't improve perfromance. I guess Ben Johnson just risked his career and health and set a world record in the 100 and it was a coincidence that he tested positive. McGwire and Bonds and Sosa just magically started hitting 60+ homers a season.
McGwire in the Hall of Fame?
29 Nov '06 22:35
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