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  1. Zugzwang
    Joined
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    14 Jan '20 23:11
    https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28477741/why-anger-boiling-scenes-houston-astros-sign-stealing-punishments

    "Why anger is boiling behind the scenes about Houston Astros' sign-stealing punishments"

    "Multiple ownership-level sources told ESPN that dissatisfaction with
    the penalties had emerged following a conference call with Manfred,
    in which he explained how the Astros would be disciplined, then
    told teams to keep their thoughts to themselves.
    "The impression," one person familiar with the call told ESPN, "was
    that the penalty for complaining would be more than Houston got."

    "A team president had said earlier in the day.
    "Crane {Houston Astros owner] won," he said. "The entire thing was
    programmed to protect the future of the franchise. He got his championship.
    He keeps his team. His fine is nothing. The sport lost, but Crane won."

    ""Did you notice," another team president said, "he [Crane] never said 'Sorry'?"

    "Jim Crane won the day that his franchise lost. How many owners
    in baseball would trade $5 million, four high draft picks and the
    firing of their GM and manager in exchange for a World Series title?
    Twenty-five? Twenty-eight? All 30?"

    "A thorough and impressive whitewashing. Tidy, clean, carefully orchestrated,
    meticulously calibrated. The Houston Astros, same as they ever were."

    In my view, MLB could show that it seriously objects to cheating
    by taking away the Houston Astros's 2017 World Series title.
    But MLB will not do that. For cheating, the incentive outweighs the risk.

    Cheating worked for the Houston Astros in MLB just as it has done
    for the New England Patriots (also mildly punished) in the NFL.
  2. Joined
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    15 Jan '20 10:00
    If it's proven that they were using tech to steal signs during the 2017 World Series. Then they were cheating.

    So, yep! A forfeit would be in order.
  3. Zugzwang
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    15 Jan '20 20:34
    @wolfe63 said
    If it's proven that they were using tech to steal signs during the 2017 World Series. Then they were cheating.

    So, yep! A forfeit would be in order.
    Evidently, it already has been established that the Houston Astros were cheating in the 2017 postseason.
    There's no reason to believe that they suddenly had an attack of conscience and
    decided to stop cheating before the 2017 World Series.

    https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28484172/mlb-players-execs-sign-stealing-scandal-astros-tarnished-rep-knew-more

    "MLB players, execs on sign-stealing scandal: Astros' tarnished rep, what they knew and more"

    "A longtime scout cited Game 4 of the 2017 World Series from Minute Maid Park
    to prove a point about the Astros' sign-stealing chicanery. Dodgers starting pitcher
    Alex Wood performed well, giving up only one run and one hit over the course of
    5⅔ innings -- but his process was telling.

    That night, Wood and his catcher, Austin Barnes, switched their sequence every eight
    pitches or so out of paranoia that the Astros were stealing the signs, the scout said.
    Earlier this offseason, in the wake of Mike Fiers' public comments about the Astros'
    illegal sign-stealing, Wood told The Athletic that he had "heard whispers of some
    of the shady stuff they'd been doing" and thus accounted for them -- though he
    did not realize the extent of them."

    "The scout also recalled a handful of ugly swings and misses by some of the Astros' stars
    during that postseason, when the bat path was nowhere near the pitch's trajectory.

    Strangely, this also provided him with confirmation.
    "Good hitters don't miss pitches like that," the scout said, "unless they think they
    are getting something hard and they get spin instead.""
  4. Standard memberHandyAndy
    Non sum qualis eram
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    15 Jan '20 22:521 edit
    The Astros should be stripped of their 2017 World Series title.

    Alex Cora, the Houston bench coach who devised the sign-stealing system, moved on to the Boston Red Sox in 2018 and guided that team to another World Series title. What a coincidence!

    The loser in both cases was the Los Angeles Dodgers.
  5. Joined
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    15 Jan '20 23:071 edit
    It's hard for me to HAND the Dodgers a World Series title when they in fact did not win it. But it is a tough question.

    And my team is the Boston Red Sox, who hired Astros bench coach, Alex Cora for the 2018 season. Will the same fate apply to the Red Sox as well?

    Alex Cora has been jettisoned from the team by Red Sox management.
  6. SubscriberVery Rusty
    Treat Everyone Equal
    Halifax, Nova Scotia
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    15 Jan '20 23:08
    @earl-of-trumps said


    And my team is the Boston Red Sox, who hired Astros bench coach, Alex Cora for the 2018 season. Will the same fate apply to the Red Sox as well?

    Alex Cora has been jettisoned from the team by Red Sox management.
    Yes, that is another question yet to be answered.

    -VR
  7. Joined
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    15 Jan '20 23:151 edit
    @very-rusty said
    Yes, that is another question yet to be answered.

    -VR
    Rusty, CRY FOR ME!!!

    108 wins, and I'm saying to myself, ahhh, this team does not have what it takes in the playoffs, the top three starting pitchers and bullpen. But I must admit they all did better than I could ever had hoped for. And of course, pitchers don't rely on stolen signals LOL
  8. Zugzwang
    Joined
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    17 Jan '20 21:201 edit
    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/jan/17/houston-astros-sign-stealing-cheating-scandal

    "Is cheating the rotten heart of American sports?
    Baseball’s toothless response to the Astros sign-stealing scandal lays bare uncomfortable
    truths about how far teams are willing to flout the rules – and how willing we are to tolerate it."

    "One of the harder-to-believe tales in American sports over the past decade involved
    the stunningly rapid transformation of the Houston Astros from a historically
    lousy baseball team to World Series winners and an emerging dynasty."

    "A wide-ranging investigation by Major League Baseball concluded the club was
    using cameras and video monitors to steal the signs of opposing catchers, transmitting
    the information through an elaborate system engineered to inform Houston’s
    batters at the plate which pitches were coming. The damning report, delivered on
    Monday by baseball commissioner Rob Manfred, confirmed the system was in
    operation THROUGHOUT the Astros’ championship season and at least part of the
    following year, casting suspicion over the team’s entire body of work."

    "Collectively, the discipline is the most severe meted out for in-game misconduct in baseball history.
    But it didn’t go nearly far enough – and why that is is worthy of inspection.
    Truth is, the Astros should vacate all titles and individual awards that were amassed
    during the period the system was confirmed to be in place ..."

    "That, of course, was never going to happen in a society where cheating is not
    merely tolerated with a wink and a nod but often rewarded outright."

    "We’re drilled from a young age that cheating is never worth it, but the absurdities
    of late capitalism puncture and expose the fantasy with one message after another.
    Take a look around. A culture of fraud on Wall Street separated millions of Americans
    from their homes, their jobs and their life savings and not one top official of a major
    financial institution went to jail under Obama’s department of justice. His successor
    built a business empire by stiffing contractors, creditors and stockholders by deftly
    gaming bankruptcy law, citing tax evasion as a credential of intelligence.
    We see it every day: cheaters not only do prosper, but are often treated with a
    grudging respect borne from those particular strains of audacity and individualism
    deeply embedded in America’s spiritual DNA. If you’re not cheating, you’re not trying."

    "The outcome is what’s known to economists as Gresham’s dynamic: when an
    incentive structure becomes so perverse that cheaters are rewarded, bad ethics
    will drive out good ethics from the market."

    "Sport holds a mirror up to society and the reflection isn’t always pleasant, but
    baseball’s toothless response to its biggest scandal since the steroid era offers up
    a particularly unsparing map of our flaws: proof positive that cheating in American
    society, while frowned upon, is ultimately accepted."
  9. Zugzwang
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    17 Jan '20 21:271 edit
    @handyandy said
    The Astros should be stripped of their 2017 World Series title.

    Alex Cora, the Houston bench coach who devised the sign-stealing system, moved on to the Boston Red Sox in 2018 and guided that team to another World Series title. What a coincidence!

    The loser in both cases was the Los Angeles Dodgers.
    https://www.latimes.com/sports/dodgers/story/2020-01-13/column-astros-should-vacate-2017-world-series-title-dodgers-still-feel-empty

    "Dodgers definitely were cheated out of 2017 World Series title by Astros’ sign-stealing"

    "They [Houston Astros] used technology at Minute Maid Park to steal the Dodgers’ signs.
    Their hitters knew what pitches were coming. They gleefully pounced on them.
    They accumulated 18 runs with 26 hits and six home runs in two series-changing victories that
    have now indelibly stamped an asterisk on an event forever marred by a sickening truth.

    The Dodgers were cheated out of the 2017 World Series championship.
    This is not sour grapes. This is not revisionist history. This is now and forever fact
    after a Major League Baseball investigation revealed Monday that the Astros used
    technology to cheat during their championship season."

    "The Dodgers didn’t win it on the field, but history should forever note that nobody beat them."

    "The Astros cheated the title-starved Dodgers of far more than a championship.
    They stole a legacy. They robbed history. They changed the sports narrative of this city forever.
    Seriously, why is that Commissioner’s Trophy still in their Houston offices?
    Why can’t they at least have the decency to give it back?"

    Because the people (who cheat lack decency in the first place.

    The MLB commissioner might well punish the Los Angeles Dodgers more harshly
    if they dared to criticize him than he punished the Houston Astros for cheating.

    In contrast, more than a few Olympic athletes have been stripped of their medals
    when they--or just one of their teammates--have been determined to have cheated,
    even when these determinations have been made many years afterward.
  10. Standard membercaissad4online
    Child of the Novelty
    San Antonio, Texas
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    17 Jan '20 22:42
    @duchess64 said
    https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28477741/why-anger-boiling-scenes-houston-astros-sign-stealing-punishments

    "Why anger is boiling behind the scenes about Houston Astros' sign-stealing punishments"

    "Multiple ownership-level sources told ESPN that dissatisfaction with
    the penalties had emerged following a conference call with Manfred,
    in which he explained how th ...[text shortened]... n Astros in MLB just as it has done
    for the New England Patriots (also mildly punished) in the NFL.
    No they should not forfeit the 2017 World Series .
    What they did was clearly cheating but even if a batter knows what pitch is coming he must still hit the ball . Seems I read that one of the Astro players still hit badly despite knowing what pitch was coming . In baseball there are certain counts where a batter knows with a high degree of certainty which type of pitch will be throw . For example , on a 3-1 count a fastball would be expected over 80% of the time .
    Lengthy bans for all actors involved is appropriate .
  11. SubscriberVery Rusty
    Treat Everyone Equal
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    17 Jan '20 23:14
    @caissad4 said
    No they should not forfeit the 2017 World Series .
    What they did was clearly cheating but even if a batter knows what pitch is coming he must still hit the ball . Seems I read that one of the Astro players still hit badly despite knowing what pitch was coming . In baseball there are certain counts where a batter knows with a high degree of certainty which type of pitch will ...[text shortened]... ball would be expected over 80% of the time .
    Lengthy bans for all actors involved is appropriate .
    So you figure a slap on the hand and say here is what you get don't do it again?

    -VR
  12. Standard membercaissad4online
    Child of the Novelty
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    18 Jan '20 00:48
    @very-rusty said
    So you figure a slap on the hand and say here is what you get don't do it again?

    -VR
    A multi year ban for all actors is hardly a slap on the wrist . Those involved will be paying financially for years also .
  13. Zugzwang
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    18 Jan '20 01:461 edit
    @caissad4 said
    No they should not forfeit the 2017 World Series .
    What they did was clearly cheating but even if a batter knows what pitch is coming he must still hit the ball . Seems I read that one of the Astro players still hit badly despite knowing what pitch was coming . In baseball there are certain counts where a batter knows with a high degree of certainty which type of pitch will ...[text shortened]... ball would be expected over 80% of the time .
    Lengthy bans for all actors involved is appropriate .
    ""They [Houston Astros] used technology at Minute Maid Park to steal the Dodgers’ signs.
    Their hitters knew what pitches were coming. They gleefully pounced on them.
    They accumulated 18 runs with 26 hits and six home runs in two series-changing victories that
    have now indelibly stamped an asterisk on an event forever marred by a sickening truth."

    Given the very narrow margin by which the Houston Astros 'won' in 2017,
    it's reasonable to infer that cheating likely was the decisive factor.
  14. Standard membercaissad4online
    Child of the Novelty
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    18 Jan '20 02:08
    @duchess64 said
    ""They [Houston Astros] used technology at Minute Maid Park to steal the Dodgers’ signs.
    Their hitters knew what pitches were coming. They gleefully pounced on them.
    They accumulated 18 runs with 26 hits and six home runs in two series-changing victories that
    have now indelibly stamped an asterisk on an event forever marred by a sickening truth."

    Given the very nar ...[text shortened]... uston Astros 'won' in 2017,
    it's reasonable to infer that cheating likely was the decisive factor.
    I agree that they cheated .
    On another note , I think Shoeless Joe Jackson and Pete Rose got a raw deal .
  15. Zugzwang
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    18 Jan '20 04:44
    @caissad4 said
    A multi year ban for all actors is hardly a slap on the wrist . Those involved will be paying financially for years also .
    Some players that the Houston Astros cheated against already are suffering a financial penalty.

    https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28505136/yu-darvish-left-more-questions-aftermath-astros-scandal

    "Yu Darvish wondering real reason behind 2017 World Series meltdown"

    "A couple of Astros players told me I was tipping pitches, but now it comes out
    they were stealing signs. Was I tipping or were they stealing?"
    --Yu Darvish

    "While with the Dodgers, he had a combined 1.59 ERA in the 2018 NL division and championship series.
    But against Houston in the World Series, his ERA ballooned to 21.60."

    "His World Series struggles likely had long-term results, as well.
    He was a free agent after that season, and the Cubs later admitted teams may
    been scared off by Darvish's performance against the Astros, giving Chicago
    an easier path to signing him to a six-year, $126 million contract."

    Yu Darvish likely would have been offered tens of millions more USD if the
    Houston Astros had not been cheating against him.
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