12 Aug 16
Originally posted by KellyJayI think Romans 2:14-16 is quite clear in its meaning.
This shows that they know to do good, but none of us always do good. We sin, even the
very best among us falter and do things they regret, things that harms others, choose to
do and say things that are harmful. The measure of good isn't us, it is God, God is the
standard and when Jesus walked among us as a man He did it sinless. So when we are
compared ...[text shortened]... to be perfectly righteous before God without God's grace and mercy on us so we
can be forgiven?
As an unbeliever, it is possible for one's own conscience and heart to instinctively do the work of God, and yes, even receive His grace. In this regard, the unbeliever is a law unto himself and doesn't require faith or religion, as it is written on his heart and self-contained. All are sinners, but similarly, all can find salvation irrespective of religious proclamations.
Originally posted by Ghost of a DukeI'm agreeing with you, it is possible we have a conscience and heart that in deed knows
I think Romans 2:14-16 is quite clear in its meaning.
As an unbeliever, it is possible for one's own conscience and heart to instinctively do the work of God, and yes, even receive His grace. In this regard, the unbeliever is a law unto himself and doesn't require faith or religion, as it is written on his heart and self-contained. All are sinners, but similarly, all can find salvation irrespective of religious proclamations.
what is instinctively the right thing to do. WE AGREE, where I assume we are parting is
not that we know, but knowing always means we do the right thing always. So that
does boil it down to where we will have no excuse when we stand before God for all the
wrongs we did, and all the good we did not do, which is why God's grace is so important.
Have you read that WHOLE book, I can think of none better that touches upon the points
I've been making. If you believe in the law and do not murder yet lust you have broken
the same law as forbids murder. If you claim you should not treat others poorly yet you
do that, your own set of personal rules will condemn you. Do you lust after people or
things, do you hate another, have you ever called anyone a fool?
The scripture is very clear too, that salvation was won for us all through Jesus Christ so
through Jesus Christ we can all be saved. Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life no
one is going make it to God except through Jesus. Yet with some here, they claim that
we can find salvation without Jesus in this life as if He will just accept our efforts with, or
without Him?
What scripture leads you to believe without Jesus Christ you will be saved? It does say
in scripture that if you do not believe in Him your condemn already. If that is true how can
it be that those outside of Jesus will be saved irrespective of religious proclamations?
The truth behind each proclamation will stand by how true they are, and Jesus said only
through Him will we be saved where does that leave everyone who chooses a different
path to righteousness? If we strive on our own to be good enough, will we be able to do
that? Yes, we can strive, but will God accept it?
John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
The thing is Jesus gets glory out of our sinful lives as we turn back to Him. He suffered
and died a death He did not deserve so sinners that did deserve it could be set free from
the guilt we have earned for our lives. As we turn to Him because of Him not because of
ourselves we are saved. If we make the claim we have to work for our salvation, we are
really saying Jesus' death wasn't enough.
As saved sinners, we receive God into our lives not because we got good enough we
never could do that, not because we earned our salvation because we accomplished
some good works thereby obligating God to grant us salvation, but because Jesus died
for us sinners. After we are saved God begins a work in us, we receive His Spirit and
become new creatures in Christ. This again not because we have managed to make
God like us by being good enough it is because while were yet sinners Christ died for us.
12 Aug 16
Originally posted by KellyJayIf Jesus welcomes an atheist into the Kingdom of God, will you be :
I'm agreeing with you, it is possible we have a conscience and heart that in deed knows
what is instinctively the right thing to do. WE AGREE, where I assume we are parting is
not that we know, but knowing always means we do the right thing always. So that
does boil it down to where we will have no excuse when we stand before God for all the
wrongs we d ...[text shortened]... make
God like us by being good enough it is because while were yet sinners Christ died for us.
- surprised
- upset
- disappointed
- angry
- all of the above?
What would you think?
12 Aug 16
Originally posted by KellyJayYou asked, 'What scripture leads you to believe without Jesus Christ you will be saved? It does say in scripture that if you do not believe in Him your condemn already. If that is true how can it be that those outside of Jesus will be saved irrespective of religious proclamations?'
I'm agreeing with you, it is possible we have a conscience and heart that in deed knows
what is instinctively the right thing to do. WE AGREE, where I assume we are parting is
not that we know, but knowing always means we do the right thing always. So that
does boil it down to where we will have no excuse when we stand before God for all the
wrongs we d ...[text shortened]... make
God like us by being good enough it is because while were yet sinners Christ died for us.
The scriptural passage I provided old chap spoke of righteous unbelievers being 'excused'on the day of judgement, which seems to make religious proclamations about Jesus redundant. - '...their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them on the day when, according to my gospel, God, through Jesus Christ, will judge the secret thoughts of all.'
13 Aug 16
Originally posted by Ghost of a DukeRomans 2:14-16
You asked, 'What scripture leads you to believe without Jesus Christ you will be saved? It does say in scripture that if you do not believe in Him your condemn already. If that is true how can it be that those outside of Jesus will be saved irrespective of religious proclamations?'
The scriptural passage I provided old chap spoke of righteous unbe ...[text shortened]... when, according to my gospel, God, through Jesus Christ, will judge the secret thoughts of all.'
When Gentiles, who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law unto themselves. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them on the day when, according to my gospel, God, through Jesus Christ, will judge the secret thoughts of all.
There is nothing in that verse you quoted that suggests anyone without Jesus Christ will
be saved. There is nothing in scripture that suggests anyone will be saved irrespective
of religious proclamations. While it is true and in the scripture you quoted that their
conscience will accuse or perhaps excuse them, that is something we all go through each
day throughout each day of their lives. So at best our conflicting thoughts will cause us to
do both throughout our lives in some things we will accuse at others excuse, but there
will be a self judgment. The scripture is quite clear, none of us have lived a good enough
life on our own.
If you think your good enough, okay that is between you and God not you and me.
13 Aug 16
Originally posted by KellyJayIt says God will judge those people. From the context it is clear that of the group without any law, some are capable of living righteously.
Romans 2:14-16
When Gentiles, who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law unto themselves. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them on the day when, ...[text shortened]... e on our own.
If you think your good enough, okay that is between you and God not you and me.
Therefore you are saying that God will destroy / torment, even those who live righteously.
Originally posted by Rajk999You said earlier that Jesus died on the cross for all people. Why then did he die for the people whom you claim are capable of living righteously?
It says God will judge those people. From the context it is clear that of the group without any law, some are capable of living righteously.
Therefore you are saying that God will destroy / torment, even those who live righteously.
13 Aug 16
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkI consider it an insult to ask someone the same question over and over. I dont do anyone that and I dont like when people do me that.
You said earlier that Jesus died on the cross for all people. Why then did he die for the people whom you claim are capable of living righteously?
13 Aug 16
Originally posted by Rajk999Clearly every single one of us will be judged and each and everyone of us will be without
It says God will judge those people. From the context it is clear that of the group without any law, some are capable of living righteously.
Therefore you are saying that God will destroy / torment, even those who live righteously.
excuse! I've repeated this over and over to you, there is none on their own that will stand
before God righteous outside of Jesus Christ.
I've also shared with you that those that have not believed in Jesus Christ are condemn
already, yet you reject scripture that says these things. What you do is select a couple
of scripture trying twist them into saying and meaning something they do not by avoiding
the rest of the scripture, not much different than what Satan attempted to do to Jesus by
only giving Christ what He wanted Him to hear in order to get him to sin against God.
If your righteousness is in Christ you will be righteous before God, if you stand before God
with sin in your life, not so much.
13 Aug 16
Originally posted by Rajk999We are all capable of living righteously, but we do not we are all sinners.
It says God will judge those people. From the context it is clear that of the group without any law, some are capable of living righteously.
Therefore you are saying that God will destroy / torment, even those who live righteously.