Religious quandary

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Yes our friend can be rather abrasive I agree.

Indeed sir.

He insinuates that i'm self centered and then suggests my chosen emoticon in response is impolite.

🙄

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Actually the text in the quote box are only excerpts from the link that I cited:
http://www.theopedia.com/imputed-righteousness

If you want to get a better understanding of the concept, you need to go to that link.

From what I gather, "imputed righteousness" would apply to all the protestant denominations.

Exactly.

I am Catholic.

Originally posted by Rajk999
I completely agree. Where we are likely to disagree is that Gods blessing falls on all of mankind which enables them to do these good works specified in Matt 25. These blessings and the resulting label of 'righteous' is not limited to Christians.

You think we'd be likely to disagree on that point so this may come as a surprise to you, but in fact I agree with you.

Originally posted by Startreader
You think we'd be likely to disagree on that point so this may come as a surprise to you, but in fact I agree with you.

Glad to hear that. 🙂

Originally posted by Startreader
Exactly.

I am Catholic.

The site also offered an explanation for "infused righteousness". Do you think it incomplete or any of it inaccurate?

Infused righteousness refers to the Roman Catholic doctrine of Justification, i.e. right standing before God. Within the Roman Catholic view, Justification is seen as a "process" as contrasted to the Protestant view of a moment-in-time forensic declaration by God that the sinner is righteous.^ [1]^ The instrumental cause of infused righteousness are the sacraments of baptism and penance^ [2]^, where as the instrumental cause of imputed righteousness is faith.^[3]^ Roman Catholicism maintains that the righteousness of the saints and of Christ is gradually "infused" into the believer through the sacraments. For the Catholic, infused righteousness either gradually dissipates as the believer takes part in worldly sins or is enhanced by good works. If the believer dies without having the fullness of righteousness, coming in part from the last rites, he or she will temporarily spend time in purgatory until the sinful status is purged from his or her record.

For the Roman Catholic, the believer is made righteous by cooperating with God's grace. For the Protestant, the believer is declared righteous when he comes to faith, based on the righteousness of Christ credited (imputed) to him.

http://www.theopedia.com/infused-righteousness

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
The site also offered an explanation for "infused righteousness". Do you think it incomplete or any of it inaccurate?

Infused righteousness refers to the Roman Catholic doctrine of Justification, i.e. right standing before God. Within the Roman Catholic view, Justification is seen as a "process" as contrasted to the Protestant view of a moment-i ...[text shortened]... f Christ credited (imputed) to him.

http://www.theopedia.com/infused-righteousness

Thank you for your link.

I've now had a chance to read around this matter and others on theopedia.com It's a Protestant site, first class for explaining the Protestant teachings and understandings. Thank you for making me aware of it and giving me the chance to understand Protestant thinking further.

I'm sure you'll want the equal opportunity to learn more fully about Catholic teachings and understanding. You'll see here that I was correct right at the beginning when I suggested that by "imputed righteousness", a term not really used in Catholic thinking, you meant "grace".

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08573a.htm

Forgive me, I don't know how to make a quote box like yours.

"The two elements of active justification, forgiveness of sin and sanctification, furnish at the same time the elements of habitual justification, freedom from sin and holiness. According to the Catholic doctrine, however, this freedom from sin and this sanctity are effected, not by two distinct and successive Divine acts, but by a single act of God. For, just as light dispels darkness, so the infusion of sanctifying grace eo ipso dispels from the soul original and mortal sin. (Cf. Trent, sess. VI, can. xi: "Si quis dixerit, homines justificari vel sola imputatione justitiae Christi, vel sola peccatorum remissione, exclusa gratia et caritate, quae in cordibus eorum per Spiritum Sanctum diffundatur atque illis inhaereat. . ., a.s."😉 In considering the effects of justification it will be useful to compare the Catholic doctrine of real forgiveness of sin with the Protestant theory that sin is merely "covered" and not imputed. By declaring the grace of justification, or sanctifying grace, to be the only formal cause of justification, the Council of Trent intended to emphasize the fact that in possessing sanctifying grace we possess the whole essence of the state of justification with all its formal effects; that is, we possess freedom from sin and sanctity, and indeed freedom from sin by means of sanctity. Such a remission of sin could not consist in a mere covering or non-imputation of sins, which continue their existence out of view; it must necessarily consist in the real obliteration and annihilation of the guilt. This genuinely Biblical concept of justification forms such an essential element of Catholicism, that even Antonio Rosmini's theory, standing half way between Protestantism and Catholicism, is quite irreconcilable with it. According to Rosmini, there are two categories of sin:

such as God merely covers and does not impute (cf. Psalm 31:1);
such as God really forgives and blots out.
By the latter Rosmini understood deliberate sins of commission (culpae actuales et liberae), by the former indeliberate sins (peccata non libera), which "do no harm to those who are of the people of God". This opinion was censured by the Holy Office (14 Dec., 1887), not only because without any reason it defended a twofold remission of sin, but also because it stamped indeliberate acts as sins (cf. Denzinger-Bannwart, "Enchir.", n.1925)."

Im afraid that, unexpectedly, the RHP system has interpreted actual punctuation as a smiley in the middle of the text.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
The site also offered an explanation for "infused righteousness". Do you think it incomplete or any of it inaccurate?

Infused righteousness refers to the Roman Catholic doctrine of Justification, i.e. right standing before God. Within the Roman Catholic view, Justification is seen as a "process" as contrasted to the Protestant view of a moment-i ...[text shortened]... f Christ credited (imputed) to him.

http://www.theopedia.com/infused-righteousness

I would say, subject to the fact that my own theological qualifications are not at a post graduate level, that that's probably about right. Subject to my inadequacies.

Originally posted by Startreader
I would say, subject to the fact that my own theological qualifications are not at a post graduate level, that that's probably about right. Subject to my inadequacies.

Since you think the theopedia article on "infused righteousness" is "probably about right" and it's much more straightforward, I'll just stick with that.

Conceptually "infused righteousness" seems much more in line with the teachings of Jesus while He walked the Earth than "imputed righteousness", though it does seem to differ.

For example:

John 8
31So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” 33They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, ‘You will become free’?” 34Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. 35“The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.

Here Jesus states that by continuing in His word, His true disciples will know the truth and that truth will set them free from committing sin. What's more, only those who have been freed from committing sin, will have eternal life.

Originally posted by Startreader
I would say, subject to the fact that my own theological qualifications are not at a post graduate level, that that's probably about right. Subject to my inadequacies.

Ask ole ThinkOfOne if he himself has eternal life. (See First John 5:13).
Ask him if he believes Christ is the Son of God who has been raised from the dead ?

If he gets a hat and cane and starts dancing across the stage, just take his New Testament exegesis with a big grain of salt.

Originally posted by sonship
Ask ole ThinkOfOne if he himself has eternal life. (See First John 5:13).
Ask him if he believes Christ is the Son of God who has been raised from the dead ?

If he gets a hat and cane and starts dancing across the stage, just take his New Testament exegesis with a big grain of salt.

I don't think I'll bother, thanks all the same. 🙂

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
Can you elaborate a little?


*Thanks everyone for the interesting replies to the OP.

Sorry just saw this question, the hard thing for me is knowing I can never be good enough
on my own through my own effort. I have to rely on Jesus Christ even while I strive to
serve Him the best I can, my good days and my bad days are nothing, only His
righteousness matters. I tend to think I'm doing good when I string a large chunks of time
together doing what I know I should and avoiding what I shouldn't. Those times I'm just
as guilty as then I'm asking God to forgive me for something I did wrong. His righteousness
not mine is what saves me.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Sorry just saw this question, the hard thing for me is knowing I can never be good enough
on my own through my own effort. I have to rely on Jesus Christ even while I strive to
serve Him the best I can, my good days and my bad days are nothing, only His
righteousness matters. I tend to think I'm doing good when I string a large chunks of time
together d ...[text shortened]... sking God to forgive me for something I did wrong. His righteousness
not mine is what saves me.

It is the same for everyone. Not one person on this earth is perfect.

But remember, God is the God of love and mercy. His mercy, his grace, reassure us.

And remember too, 2016 is a Holy Year, the Year of Mercy. Pope Francis exhorts us all too to remember the importance of our own charitable works of mercy, which are a duty.

Originally posted by sonship
Ask ole ThinkOfOne if he himself has eternal life. (See First John 5:13).
Ask him if he believes Christ is the Son of God who has been raised from the dead ?

If he gets a hat and cane and starts dancing across the stage, just take his New Testament exegesis with a big grain of salt.

Where's the "dance" in presenting the words of Jesus in John 8:31-35? In letting HIS WORDS speak for themselves?

The "dance" comes in taking the words of those other than Jesus, taking words out of context, taking verses and often just portions of verses and cobbling them together to creating something that looks like it might support your beliefs if only you don't look very hard at it. This is what you are wont to do. One only need take a cursory look at your posting history to know that this is true.

You do this instead of letting Jesus' words speak for themselves. You don't let Jesus' words speak for themselves because you don't BELIEVE His words. You don't BELIEVE HIM.

You're the one who "gets a hat and cane and starts dancing across the stage" and have been doing it for years and you don't think anything of it. It should be a "religious quandary" for you, but it isn't.

"The truth will make you free".

Originally posted by KellyJay
Sorry just saw this question, the hard thing for me is knowing I can never be good enough
on my own through my own effort. I have to rely on Jesus Christ even while I strive to
serve Him the best I can, my good days and my bad days are nothing, only His
righteousness matters. I tend to think I'm doing good when I string a large chunks of time
together d ...[text shortened]... sking God to forgive me for something I did wrong. His righteousness
not mine is what saves me.

No problem. Thanks for elaborating.

As thread creator i have authority over the buffet. Help yourself sir to a virtual teacake.

Where's the "dance" in presenting the words of Jesus in John 8:31-35? In letting HIS WORDS speak for themselves?

Quite so. Let His words . ALL His words speak for themselves.

The "dance" comes in taking the words of those other than Jesus,

Do you mean only taking the "red letter" words in the Gospels and discounting so much else of the New Testament ?

According to Christ's words if we receive His apostles we receive Him.

" He who hears you hears Me, and he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me." ( Luke 10:16 )

So I should receive the apostolic teaching of Peter, John, Paul, James and other New Testament writers.

Isn't that right ?

taking words out of context, taking verses and often just portions of verses and cobbling them together to creating something that looks like it might support your beliefs if only you don't look very hard at it. This is what you are wont to do. One only need take a cursory look at your posting history to know that this is true.

Are you saying there is never any need for interpretation of words as to their best meaning? We often have to interpret the words of the New Testament to ascertain the best interpretation.

By the way. When He said He would rise from the dead, does that mean to you that He meant He would rise from the dead ?

Secondly, AFTER He rose, do you believe the words He spoke in that state of resurrection ? Those are words of Jesus which need to speak for themselves also. Right?

Don't reach for that hat and cane now.

You do this instead of letting Jesus' words speak for themselves. You don't let Jesus' words speak for themselves because you don't BELIEVE His words. You don't BELIEVE HIM.

I am in the process of learning more and more to believe His words.
And I do agree by experience that the truth does make me free.
I have no argument there at all.

The truth that Christ rose and is available to be known today ... that is a liberating truth that makes free. And it continues to make free as my appreciation of the fact deepens and expands into more areas of my personal life.

Indeed - the truth will make you free.

You're the one who "gets a hat and cane and starts dancing across the stage" and have been doing it for years and you don't think anything of it. It should be a "religious quandary" for you, but it isn't.

Since I was being a bit of a wiseguy, I'll let you retort this back to me.
Actually, you're not bad in that you have something we can work with, the statements of the New Testament .... sometimes.

"The truth will make you free".

That is right. The deception of the enemy of God is the enslaving factor. The truth does make us free. And the truth is in Jesus.

Realizing that the risen Christ is everything we need, indeed sets free.
Realzing that He exceeds our desires, indeed sets one free.
Realizing that moment by moment by moment Jesus is available, definitely sets us free.

Knowing that Jesus lives and can live in me - sets me free.
Realizing that my past is Christ, my history is Christ, my legacy is Christ, and my age and eternity is Christ, sets me free, free to live unto God as I was created to.

" It is for freedom that Christ has set us free; stand fast therefore, and do not be entangled with a yoke of slavery again." (Gal. 5:1)