Originally posted by karoly aczel
btw, that's a good question for them, but no doubt they will only be further insulted and deflect again by picking out a few words here or there and mislead the whole conversation.

Of course. But that's so often simply part and parcel of their faith's effect on them and their method of professing that faith.

Originally posted by FMF
Like I said. I haven't claimed that Christianity isn't popular or that the cult of personality surrounding Jesus did not catch on quickly and hasn't done well as a retail religion. There are also a lot of Muslims in the world. But in neither case do ad populum arguments render your specific claims about the supernatural any more convincing.

It is not that easy to shrug off as an ad populum argument.
The "cult of personality" involves a man hated and mob executed in one day and hailed as alive and Lord quite soon after. And that by many former opposers and enemies.

Argument by shrug - not very convincing to me either.

Originally posted by sonship
It is not that easy to shrug off as an ad populum argument.

All you offered in your long post was an ad populum 'argument'. That millions of people have turned to Christianity or were born into it, or that millions of people have turned to Islam or were born into it, adds nothing to the claims about supernatural things that you make or my Muslim neighbour makes.

Originally posted by sonship
Argument by shrug - not very convincing to me either.

In am not trying to convince you of anything, sonship, other than the fact that the things you say are not convincing to me. Things like argumentum ad populum [stuff like how come there are so many Christians if what they believe isn't true?] and circular arguments [stuff like the book is divinely inspired because the book tells us that it is divinely inspired] are not going to work.

Originally posted by FMF
I didn't say all Christians. And it is not 'made up' - it is my point of view based on a life time interacting with those Christians whose outlook is essentially one of impotence and pessimism.

And which, according to you, is all of them.

Originally posted by FMF
I don't necessarily think it's "bad" if, for example, it enables people to cope with the vicissitudes of life (as otherwise they might not) and face the inevitability of death. Then again, Christians declaring themselves to be immortal because of something they think is perhaps better described as optimism. But all the stuff about the world being so ba ...[text shortened]... ed the end is night the sooner the better is defeatism and negativity to my way of thinking.

Ridiculous. Jesus Christ allows all who believe on his name to overcome.

There is no way that you can twist that to be "defeatism" or "negativity".

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Of the many strains of Christianity out there, I look for those that seek to empower and fulfill people.
But the overwhelming majority tells us repeatedly that only through acceptance of Jesus christ can one be on the right path,( and that path is one where you must realize how inadequate we are compared to JC), seems dull and counterintuitive...among ...[text shortened]... d and deflect again by picking out a few words here or there and mislead the whole conversation.

The very message of Christianity is that the world is NOT "untranscendable".

Don't let your own belief color what you perceive the message of Christianity to be, as FMF does.

Originally posted by Suzianne
And which, according to you, is all of them.

Not at all. I have met and known countless Christians who simply don't go for the suffocating, paranoid defeatism & negativity thing ... 'the world is so bad - nothing can be done - it's all going to be destroyed soon - the end is nigh - the sooner the better'.

I have been surrounded by Christians all my life - and was one myself for decades - and the gloomy doomsday type have constituted a minority of those Christians. Clearly not "all of them" to my way of thinking, as you are suggesting.

Originally posted by FMF
Like I said. I haven't claimed that Christianity isn't popular or that the cult of personality surrounding Jesus did not catch on quickly and hasn't done well as a retail religion. There are also a lot of Muslims in the world. But in neither case do ad populum arguments render your specific claims about the supernatural any more convincing.

However, if you think that that is all that Christianity is, then you have either misinterpreted the message, or its importance in overcoming everyone's own "cult of personality" they have surrounded themselves with. Or perhaps that is precisely why you had to abandon the precepts.

Originally posted by FMF
Not at all. I have met and known countless Christians who simply don't go for the suffocating, paranoid defeatism & negativity thing ... 'the world is so bad - nothing can be done - it's all going to be destroyed soon - the end is nigh - the sooner the better'.

I have been surrounded by Christians all my life - and was one myself for decades - and the gloom ...[text shortened]... ity of those Christians. Clearly not "all of them" to my way of thinking, as you are suggesting.

Simply calling it "suffocating, paranoid defeatism & negativity" does not make it so. Defeatism and negativity have no place in Christianity. The message is the antithesis of those.

Originally posted by Suzianne
However, if you think that that is all that Christianity is, then .... blah blah blah

I've never said that "that is all that Christianity is", or anything of the sort.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Simply calling it "suffocating, paranoid defeatism & negativity" does not make it so.

Simply calling it that certainly does make it clear what my perception is of the kind of stuff you and roigam come out with about the end being nigh.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
The doctrine of disempowerment. Sad really.

You maintain the gap between you and the divine forever with this restrictive, backwards attitude.
And if you get overrun by aliens you will say it's god's will ...🙁

There isn't a gap between us and God, God bridged it for us through Jesus Christ. The only
gap is sin and when we think we rate being good enough for God on our efforts.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Ridiculous. Jesus Christ allows all who believe on his name to overcome. There is no way that you can twist that to be "defeatism" or "negativity".

I am talking about the kind of gloomy doomsday stuff about the "end" being nigh that Christians like you trot out.

Originally posted by FMF
I am talking about the kind of gloomy doomsday stuff about the "end" being nigh that Christians like you trot out.

Again, this is **your** perception, or perhaps your own fantasy. You calling it "gloomy doomsday stuff" shows your own agenda. It is the culmination of the book, which starts with "Good News" and ends with the fulfillment of that "Good News".

No "gloom or doom" necessary. So you have to project it, to paint it as somehow pessimistic, so that you feel better about your own inadequacies. "At least I'm not that horrible." Again, whatever helps you sleep at night.