Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
No problem. Thanks for elaborating.

As thread creator i have authority over the buffet. Help yourself sir to a virtual teacake.

Why thank you, I've never had virtual teacake before. I have been quite found of real
cheese cake. 😛

Originally posted by KellyJay
Sorry just saw this question, the hard thing for me is knowing I can never be good enough
on my own through my own effort. I have to rely on Jesus Christ even while I strive to
serve Him the best I can, my good days and my bad days are nothing, only His
righteousness matters. I tend to think I'm doing good when I string a large chunks of time
together d ...[text shortened]... sking God to forgive me for something I did wrong. His righteousness
not mine is what saves me.

it sounds like you are doing your best, shouldnt that be enough?

Originally posted by stellspalfie
it sounds like you are doing your best, shouldnt that be enough?

No, our best isn't enough if it were it would be about our efforts and works. Which is why
God's gift is so important, there isn't anyway human effort makes it.

it sounds like you are doing your best, shouldnt that be enough?

Mankind can be compared to a shop of vases of china. An earthquake has caused every single one of them to fall off the tables and shelves and be broken into pieces - shattered on the floor.

Pretend that they can speak to each other. Some vases are broken into one hundred pieces. Others have be shattered into sixty pieces. Others have been busted into twenty pieces and others into four or five pieces. Maybe the ones broken into four pieces brag against those broken into twenty pieces.

"I'm not so bad compared to you. You are really broken up more. Me, I am only broken into four jagged pieces. " They compare themselves to each other. And some have confidence that at least they are not AS broken as some other one.

The fact of the matter is that they are ALL broken, ALL destroyed, ALL damaged. This an illustration of what the fall of Adam has done to the entire human race. Everyone has fallen into ruin according to the Creator's standard.

We all must become compared to an unbroken vessel, a normal vessel. That normal vessel is the Son of God - Jesus Christ. What we have to realize is that Jesus is not the greatest enigma but rather God's normality. His life exposes the degree to which we all have been damaged and need saving.

(Try to learn from the analogy. Don't hunt for some inconsistency or logical weakness. ie. about the earthquake , etc.)

Originally posted by KellyJay
No, our best isn't enough if it were it would be about our efforts and works. Which is why
God's gift is so important, there isn't anyway human effort makes it.

The doctrine of disempowerment. Sad really.

You maintain the gap between you and the divine forever with this restrictive, backwards attitude.
And if you get overrun by aliens you will say it's god's will ...🙁

Originally posted by karoly aczel
The doctrine of disempowerment. Sad really.

A question I can never seem to get an answer to from those Christians here who propagate this kind of ideology that you have dubbed the doctrine of "disempowerment" : did your profound feelings of impotence and pessimism draw you to Christianity and the psychological compensations it offered you, or did Christianity render you impotent and pessimistic.

Originally posted by FMF
A question I can never seem to get an answer to from those Christians here who propagate this kind of ideology that you have dubbed the doctrine of "disempowerment" : did your profound feelings of impotence and pessimism draw you to Christianity and the psychological compensations it offered you, or did Christianity render you impotent and pessimistic.

And as I have told you repeatedly (despite you claiming you never seem to get an answer), the problem with this kind of question is that the given is flawed. Christians have no "profound feelings of impotence and pessimism". You're just making that bit up. And therefore the rest of your question makes no sense, given that you botched it yourself with your flawed given.

Yeah, we know you like to assume bad things about people in your own mind, but that's the only place they exist. You try to pull the same types of flawed questioning of people all the time. I'm surprised more people aren't as tired of it as I am.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Christians have no "profound feelings of impotence and pessimism". You're just making that bit up.

I didn't say all Christians. And it is not 'made up' - it is my point of view based on a life time interacting with those Christians whose outlook is essentially one of impotence and pessimism.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Yeah, we know you like to assume bad things about people in your own mind, but that's the only place they exist. You try to pull the same types of flawed questioning of people all the time. I'm surprised more people aren't as tired of it as I am.

I don't necessarily think it's "bad" if, for example, it enables people to cope with the vicissitudes of life (as otherwise they might not) and face the inevitability of death. Then again, Christians declaring themselves to be immortal because of something they think is perhaps better described as optimism. But all the stuff about the world being so bad what can be done it's all going to be destroyed the end is night the sooner the better is defeatism and negativity to my way of thinking.

Then again, Christians declaring themselves to be immortal ...

This is an issue of believing that God has spoken or has not. That is have Christians declared themselves to be immortal ? Or has One who was raised from the dead declared after this demonstration that God has the authority and power to grant eternal life.

It will come as no surprise that I believe the latter.
No, Christians have NOT declared themselves to be immortal.

You deal with the cataclysmic impact of one Jesus of Nazareth having demonstrating victory over death. Or at least that 40 some days after His execution a sizable portion of Jews who have been practicing something ELSE for over a thousand years, suddenly began to proclaim Jesus rose from the dead.

because of something they think is perhaps better described as optimism.

You are dumbing down history which needs to be explained, into a triviality you feel more comfortable to dismiss.

A Jewish population which for centuries took the Sabbath day, the 7th day of the week, to be of the utmost sacredness, suddenly began to talk about "the Lord's day". That is the first day of the new week, an 8th day, in which Jesus rose from the dead. Why?

You are dumbing down world history into something you can cavalierly dismiss as wishful thinking. What made thousands of Sabbath keeping Jews suddenly regard more important the 8th weekday ? And this happened within a very short period of time.

Is a little sudden burst of optimism with 10,000 Jews of Jerusalem Jews the explanation? Keep in mind that this was not off in Galilee or some other backwater.
This was in Jerusalem their theological and theocratic capital.

But all the stuff about the world being so bad what can be done it's all going to be destroyed the end is night the sooner the better is defeatism and negativity to my way of thinking.

Whether the second coming of Christ is an END or a BEGINNING depends on where you stand in relation to His salvation.

The Bible teaches that as goes man, so goes the planet. A critical mass of human beings manifested as sons of God is also the liberation of the planet from "the slavery of corruption". The KEY to restoration of the world is in that birth and manifestation of matured sons of God.

Whether you regard this as a pessimistic END of the world depends on your standing in relation to God's will.

As a follower of Jesus I do not regard this as " the end of the world" in every sense. Rather Jesus spoke of the coming great tribulation as a BIRTH and of "birth pangs" as a women bringing forth new life.

"All these things [of the great tribulation] are the beginning of birth pangs." (Matt. 24:8)

If a man witnesses his wife giving birth to a child, I am sure you didn't say - "Oh no, there it goes. This is the END of the women." Rather, if all goes well, he will rejoice with his wife in the BEGINNING of a new life and era.

This unfolding newness of creation does have its initial birth in Christ's coming. And its climax is what we all long for, or should long for, a world in which righteousness dwells.

"But according to His promise we are expecting new heavens and new earth in which righteousness dwells." (2 Pet. 3:13)

This is why the Messiah, Christ, is called "the desire of the nations" (Haggai 2:7)
Whether it is realized or not, we know that Jesus Christ is what all the nations are longing for.

Originally posted by sonship

Then again, Christians declaring themselves to be immortal ...

This is an issue of believing that God has spoken or has not. That is have Christians declared themselves to be immortal ? Or has One who was raised from the dead declared after this demonstration that God has the authority and power to grant eternal life.

It ...[text shortened]... hether it is realized or not, we know that Jesus Christ is what all the nations are longing for.

I have never sought to deny that Christians believe what they believe and that Christianity is popular.

Originally posted by FMF
I have never sought to deny that Christians believe what they believe and that Christianity is popular.

I said:

You are dumbing down history which needs to be explained, into a triviality you feel more comfortable to dismiss.

A Jewish population which for centuries took the Sabbath day, the 7th day of the week, to be of the utmost sacredness, suddenly began to talk about "the Lord's day". That is the first day of the new week, an 8th day, in which Jesus rose from the dead. Why?

You are dumbing down world history into something you can cavalierly dismiss as wishful thinking. What made thousands of Sabbath keeping Jews suddenly regard more important the 8th weekday ? And this happened within a very short period of time.

You're trying to make a historical stone into historical whip cream.
You're trying to deal with some more solid historical phenomenon by pretending its a vapor cloud you can easily fan away.

Give us your alternative explanation for the sudden fervor of thousands in Jerusalem that Someone overcame physical death. The man speaking of eternal life is purported to have demonstrated unconquerable life.

Mass hallucination?
Mass wishful thinking?

Originally posted by FMF
A question I can never seem to get an answer to from those Christians here who propagate this kind of ideology that you have dubbed the doctrine of "disempowerment" : did your profound feelings of impotence and pessimism draw you to Christianity and the psychological compensations it offered you, or did Christianity render you impotent and pessimistic.

Of the many strains of Christianity out there, I look for those that seek to empower and fulfill people.
But the overwhelming majority tells us repeatedly that only through acceptance of Jesus christ can one be on the right path,( and that path is one where you must realize how inadequate we are compared to JC), seems dull and counterintuitive...amongst other things.

I do understand the difference between egotistical , narcissistic power and the power which comes from right actions which always seek to serve all life, all mankind. And despite this , no matter how righteous and perfect one's life can be it is sacreligious to say that one could be as good as the son of god.

It's an impasse, a blockage (created by the church? ), to keep people down and to make them accept their sinning nature because it is untranscendable anyway... so why even try.
Sad really.

edit: btw, that's a good question for them, but no doubt they will only be further insulted and deflect again by picking out a few words here or there and mislead the whole conversation.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Of the many strains of Christianity out there, I look for those that seek to empower and fulfill people.
But the overwhelming majority tells us repeatedly that only through acceptance of Jesus christ can one be on the right path,( and that path is one where you must realize how inadequate we are compared to JC), seems dull and counterintuitive...among ...[text shortened]... d and deflect again by picking out a few words here or there and mislead the whole conversation.

Jesus himself never preached that one must realise how inadequate we are compared to him. Jesus preached that love, charity and good works is the way to eternal life.

Originally posted by sonship
I said:

[quote] You are dumbing down history which needs to be explained, into a triviality you feel more comfortable to dismiss.

A Jewish population which for centuries took the Sabbath day, the 7th day of the week, to be of the utmost sacredness, suddenly began to talk about "the Lord's day". That is the first day of the new week, an 8th day, in whi ...[text shortened]... ted to have demonstrated unconquerable life.

Mass hallucination?
Mass wishful thinking?

Like I said. I haven't claimed that Christianity isn't popular or that the cult of personality surrounding Jesus did not catch on quickly and hasn't done well as a retail religion. There are also a lot of Muslims in the world. But in neither case do ad populum arguments render your specific claims about the supernatural any more convincing.