Challenges

In a different thread,a poster made the comment "I don't think there are any clan leaders who think, "I wish it was easier to accept challenges from other clans."
Admittedly,as a leader, it is easy to just press the button and accept any old challenge that is thrown at you,but the bigger issue is investigating the individual challenges (their player versus your player) to see how fair it actually is.I am not a leader anymore, but when I was I found this to be very laborious.The "total" points tally at the bottom meant next to nothing in my opinion.I'd much rather have seen a "t.e.r" comparison per player for example.
The most frustrating thing however, was having laboriously sought out a fair challenge against another clan and mounted it,was to get the response"This clan is not currently accepting new challenges"
If any clan in this category could be highlighted on the list(or even better clans that are accepting challenges that would be an improvement

@venda said
In a different thread,a poster made the comment "I don't think there are any clan leaders who think, "I wish it was easier to accept challenges from other clans."
Admittedly,as a leader, it is easy to just press the button and accept any old challenge that is thrown at you,but the bigger issue is investigating the individual challenges (their player versus your player) ...[text shortened]... d on the list(or even better clans that are accepting challenges that would be an improvement

I fullheartedly agree to the suggestions:

* Clans that are open for challenges should be marked in the list.
* TER should be given instead of actual rating.

and I add:
* TER should be used for estimating the eligibility in terms of rating gap.

To add some context - one of the features being tested on the beta site is the Accept Challenge button is green. The Decline Challenge was still grey.

Here is my cross-post in full:

"It's two separate thoughts mashed into one post sorry.

Most Clan challenges need a little work or need to be declined straight out. Some clan leaders create challenges that are by design favorable to their clans. This may be the point of clan leadership for some and the road to creating a "successful" clan. Some leaders create challenges that attempt to be fair for every board. Winning is not the point - playing is.

Green means go. It is an inviting little icon, and as clan leaders are clicking around too fast - playing games and reading forums posts and checking their clan - it is more likely that the icon will be click in a moment of madness. I have both Accepted and Declined challenges without meaning to - thinking I was previewing maybe, but the mouse had a mind of its own.

The contrast of Green/Grey implies (maybe subconsciously) that green is "better". It's is in color and that has to be better. Maybe if Green is Accept Decline can be Red. I think that would lessen mistake clicks - it would be more obvious you are selecting a specific action (accepting games for others) .

Not to belabor the point (they said belaboring the point), I don't think there are any clan leaders who think, "I wish it was easier to accept challenges from other clans."

Or I could be completely wrong. Clan leaders? Beta testing is the time to speak up."

When I create challenges it is the latter. I am not concerned with winning the challenge I just want to play chess. I don't want to "have played chess (and won)" I want to play chess.

I like creating challenges and I like being able to create my own games against good opponents. As the other clan leaders can attest - the challenges I send over are not tipped in our direction and there is never a quid pro quo - this match might go your way but that one could go mine. All matches are even (or at least in my limited perception - I don't know hardly anyone here).

Obviously Anātman is never going to finish at the top of the table with that attitude and that is fine. Many of the members of my clan don't really even know what the clan is - I asked if they wanted to join and they said yes and I send them games. They have never been to this forum or the clan standings. We have no forum discussion.

I applaud clan leaders who are smart enough to create challenges that are to their advantage - good luck to all. But I don't need a green button to tempt me to accept their challenges without a thorough vetting.

A

My 2 bits .......

I have always maintained that the clan challenge feature, when approached as a competition, is contested on 2 fronts:
1 - the opposing players in each challenges competing to win their game over the board. Essentially, the games are ultimately won/lost on the chessboard.
2 - the opposing clan leaders competing with each other in negotiating their clan challenges.

It is the 2nd front that has been the subject of much discussion in this forum.
And along with this many accusations of cheating and underhanded tactics when negotiating takes place.

Out of this, there are suggestions on how the clan feature can be improved.
With most of the improvements involving giving clan leaders better tools to evaluate
And of course, we should all be open to improvements.
But at the end of the day, it is up to the clan leaders to do their homework, using the tools that are currently available to them.
If some clan leaders don't use these tools, that is their choice. And the criticism should not be levelled to those clan leaders who do their homework.
To those who practice due diligence, the setting of clan challenges involves a set negotiations where challenges can bounce back and forth between clan leaders until either a challenge is agreed to and set or a challenge is deleted.
In the case where a challenge is agreed to, it then falls to the players who compete to win their games.

Debates about the scoring system or how the challenges are managed, in particular games ongoing in a challenge that has already been decided, will continue.
As will the vigilance in watching for those who seek to abuse the system, be it collusion between 2 or more clans (2016) or rating manipulation using tournament games (2019).
At the end of the day, the clan feature is an informal system that runs on goodwill.
If that goodwill is respected, then the clan feature will be just fine.
Improvements are welcome, but an overhaul is not needed.

Just my thoughts.......

@mghrn55 said
My 2 bits .......

I have always maintained that the clan challenge feature, when approached as a competition, is contested on 2 fronts:
1 - the opposing players in each challenges competing to win their game over the board. Essentially, the games are ultimately won/lost on the chessboard.
2 - the opposing clan leaders competing with each other in negotiating their clan ...[text shortened]... l be just fine.
Improvements are welcome, but an overhaul is not needed.

Just my thoughts.......

😴

@lemondrop said
😴

Your opinion is welcome.
If your emoticon is any indication, then you haven't been paying attention.

@mghrn55 said
Your opinion is welcome.
If your emoticon is any indication, then you haven't been paying attention.

😞

@mghrn55 said
My 2 bits .......

I have always maintained that the clan challenge feature, when approached as a competition, is contested on 2 fronts:
1 - the opposing players in each challenges competing to win their game over the board. Essentially, the games are ultimately won/lost on the chessboard.
2 - the opposing clan leaders competing with each other in negotiating their clan ...[text shortened]... l be just fine.
Improvements are welcome, but an overhaul is not needed.

Just my thoughts.......

Agree with 1, disagree with 2. I think the opposing clan leaders are working together more than they are competing. Every time I send over a challenge (there is nice 6-player waiting in your inbox for instance) I hope the other leader accepts it. I am not trying to trick you. Or beat you. I honestly hope you will like it. We are partners.

OK maybe not exactly - but I look at it like a sports competition. The Cowboys and Rams are business partners. Their real competition is baseball and basketball and hockey and the movie theaters and other places people can spend their disposable income - not each other. Without each other they can't play. Who wants to practice all the time or play against a computer?

If the clan leaders don't come to an agreement no one plays chess. Yes you want what is best for your clan. But you also want what is best for the site. Which in theory is players playing chess.

@they said
Agree with 1, disagree with 2. I think the opposing clan leaders are working together more than they are competing. Every time I send over a challenge (there is nice 6-player waiting in your inbox for instance) I hope the other leader accepts it. I am not trying to trick you. Or beat you. I honestly hope you will like it. We are partners.

OK maybe not exactly - but I look at ...[text shortened]... or your clan. But you also want what is best for the site. Which in theory is players playing chess.

At the end of the day, we are competing.
You as a clan leader are trying to win the challenge.
Yes the mutual goals are there, mostly making this feature viable and promoting it.
If you want the clan feature to represent a social gathering of sorts, that is your choice.
But if you look at the clan table, it does represent statistics, namely challenges won and lost. Yes, challenges are won and lost !!
And the site does print standings, so that does lead to competition by its' very nature.

And referring to your example, yes, the Cowboys and Rams do have mutual goals, the success and overall health of the league they play in.
They need that league to be healthy in order to reap the benefits such as salary, organizational profitability and economic stimulus for all cities involved.
But once they get on the playing field, they will try to beat the heck out of each other.
And the coaches and general managers (equivalent of clan leaders) play a significant role in putting the best team possible on the field.
And at the end of it all, there is the Super Bowl, the biggest prize of all.
Just ask Tom Brady !!

btw, I see your challenge. I will get to it in next couple of days. And accept it or send you a counteroffer.

@mghrn55

a social gathering of sorts

Yes perfect. That is exactly how I think of all this, well said. I can't really argue with anything you wrote.

The site and the clan feature are lucky to have you as a contributor.

A

@they
Thank you

Some good points here.In my experience when I was leader of the Laikers it seemed that most members saw the clan as a way to accrue games without having to look for themselves.I published a newsletter every month with all the performance stats,an ongoing clan league table and any clan news but had very little feedback.
Why are there a lot of inactive clans?I suspect there are 2 main reasons.Leaders become disenchanted with the system and the chore of looking for challenges so simply stop doing it setting their options to "no longer accepting new challenges",and the apathy of the membership.Our clan forum was hardly ever used.
A few tweaks to the system would no doubt be good for the leaders but,a bit like English football,there's little interest outside of the premiership,or in our case page one of the net points list.

@venda said
Some good points here.In my experience when I was leader of the Laikers it seemed that most members saw the clan as a way to accrue games without having to look for themselves.I published a newsletter every month with all the performance stats,an ongoing clan league table and any clan news but had very little feedback.
Why are there a lot of inactive clans?I suspect there are ...[text shortened]... l,there's little interest outside of the premiership,or in our case page one of the net points list.

I just wanted to comment on your statement about having a forum that was hardly ever used. Ours doesn't get used that often either, but what is said in it is important. We leave our idle chatter for P.M.'s or in the Public forums. I believe it possible to have a successful Clan without having an active Forum. I know personally I've talked more to my clanmates in P.M.'s than I have in the Clan Forum. As a rule only things of importance are brought up in our Clan Forum in my opinion. As you are well aware our Clan has been very successful over the years.

-VR

@very-rusty said
I just wanted to comment on your statement about having a forum that was hardly ever used. Ours doesn't get used that often either, but what is said in it is important. We leave our idle chatter for P.M.'s or in the Public forums. I believe it possible to have a successful Clan without having an active Forum. I know personally I've talked more to my clanmates in P.M.'s tha ...[text shortened]... Forum in my opinion. As you are well aware our Clan has been very successful over the years.

-VR

Of course Rusty.Our clan has been successful for a good many years without bothering much with the forum.I was just endorsing the comment made earlier where someone said that their forum wasn't used much

@venda said
Of course Rusty.Our clan has been successful for a good many years without bothering much with the forum.I was just endorsing the comment made earlier where someone said that their forum wasn't used much

I assumed we were talking about Clan Challenges, and forums not being used in them much. I don't think that matters much so long as you're all in communication on the important things. I am happy doing P.M.'s with my Clanmates and also in the Public forums. I don't think it has anything to do with how well a Clan does at all, even if the forum isn't really active. Now completely dead wouldn't be good!

EDIT: You and I are both in Dark Dragon Club.

-VR