Originally posted by robbie carrobieThere is a book by the Harvard Negotiation Project (Harvard University, Cambridge, MA USA) called Getting to Yes: Negotiating Agreement Without Giving In.
I am killing nothing my friend, on the contrary metallica have killed it for years with their sagginess, I had enough of their tyranny and fought back. Personally I would like to use the opportunity to get changes made to the clan system as highlighted in detail by moonbus, that would put an end to metallica sandbagging once and for all.
The process they discuss is based on coming to mutually acceptable agreements. The primary strategy is to focus on interests, particularly mutual interests, and not on "positions."
I believe our interests here are mutual. We want a fair clan competition. We have seen a lot of good ideas – credit moonbus and others for taking the time.
I post this missive today for two reasons:
1. This post quoted above is the clearest and most concise we have seen on the actual issues.
Over the past few years, some players for Metallica and other clans have resigned games that are not yet lost on the board. Resigning games that are not yet lost artificially lower a players rating. As rating is the primary (not only – don’t pick nits with me now, just stop) is the primary data clan leaders have in creating fair challenges – artificially lowering the rating of a player creates an advantage. Metallica and other clans have used this to their advantage. No rules were broken. This is a fact. This is not a position.
robbie carrobie states above “I had enough of their tyranny and fought back.” What he and Easy Riders are doing is an intentional act meant to right a wrong. That is no longer in question. No rules are being broken. He states his intentional actions as a fact. It is not a position.
This post got 6 thumbs down.
We have been going back and forth for almost a year and finally someone posts the clearest and most concise statement we have seen on the actual issue – and it gets 6 thumbs down. We have lost our way; we are buried in our positions. And yes we. I also have my position which sometime gets in the way of our mutual interests.
2. I sent the PM to roma45. I apparently misunderstood the P portion of PM.
That not-withstanding – I sent it, so I will own it.
I am not advocating the actions in the PM; I am saying they will work. And they will. If the goal is to return to the old system of Metallica using the artificially lowered rating of players to create a season-long advantage (which is within the rules of chess and of this website) there you go. Focus and discipline and this all goes away by the end of the year.
But if we look at our mutual interests, and not our "positions", if you look at your interests, and not at your "positions", we can do better than that. We can.
If robbie carrobie leaves this website the website will be a less interesting place to come to every day. It will be our loss. robbie carrobie and shortcircuit are two sides of the same coin. Chess players (today one is rated 1736 and the other 1744), leaders, interesting people that we can follow. If you like one but not the other that is your volition. “Positions”. Many of us like them both.
The ladder system for teams does not work. That is the problem. It is great for individuals. Chess ladders have been around as long as chess clubs. It does not work for teams. It is not an effective way to measure team success. It would not work for any team sport or game – as a measure of team success it is flawed in its design. The way this will be fixed is that the Clan Leagues will be changed. That is my 2016 prediction.
I predict the team ladder will go away in 2017 and the Clan Leagues will be redesigned to create a fair competition for any clan that wants to participate. Not every clan can be in the top league, clans have many sizes and strengths just like football teams. Maybe shortcircuit and Al will fight it out until Boxing Day to be the first champions of the Red Hot Pawn Premier League.
You can say, “But that will never work …”. Positions. Maybe you are correct. Or maybe it will work, great in fact. If you fight it from day one and don’t try to make it work that certainly won’t help. Self-fulfilling prophesy is a real thing.
I apologize for the length of this post. I would have made it shorter but I ran out of time.
JC
Originally posted by arbeiderPossibly the most accurate and post I think I have ever read on these forum boards. It appears to me that the consensus is that change has to come and that the site administration would do well to take a serious look at the situation and to try to implement the suggestions of the clan community as outlined in detail by moonbus and others.
There is a book by the Harvard Negotiation Project (Harvard University, Cambridge, MA USA) called Getting to Yes: Negotiating Agreement Without Giving In.
The process they discuss is based on coming to mutually acceptable agreements. The primary strategy is to focus on interests, particularly mutual interests, and not on "positions."
I believe our in ...[text shortened]... pologize for the length of this post. I would have made it shorter but I ran out of time.
JC
-Removed-You can count thumbs down, you came here to tell us you can count thumbs down? My goodness was that all you managed to glean from the text of arbeider too? Are the issues beyond you or is it that you simply are too lazy to put forth any mental effort? Seriously your drivel is meaningless to anyone with more that two brain cells and a functioning synapse. Why don't you take up tiddlywinks or something more your level? You might be good at snakes and ladders 😵
Originally posted by robbie carrobieSir,
You can count thumbs down, you came here to tell us you can count thumbs down? My goodness was that all you managed to glean from the text of arbeider too? Are the issues beyond you or is it that you simply are too lazy to put forth any mental effort? Seriously your drivel is meaningless to anyone with more that two brain cells and a functioning syn ...[text shortened]... you take up tiddlywinks or something more your level? You might be good at snakes and ladders 😵
Abeider, Moonbus, and others had some good points. I think it is something that would have to be voted on though by the chess community as a group. You can't have a few deciding what is good for all. Or because someone is cheating say that had to be done to draw attention. Not a good reason for CHEATING in my opinion, for any REASON!!!
I found something else arbeider had to say quite interesting, which was:
If robbie carrobie leaves this website the website will be a less interesting place to come to every day. My comment on that: It would cut the INSULTS THROWN in HALF!!!
What about the people who left because of your activities, and the people who who will be leaving in the future also because of your activities if a point roll back isn't done. Are these people not as "Interesting as robbie"?
Cheating is never a way to make a statement. As far as the forums being a less interesting place to come without you in it. Would it not be the same of anyone else who was here and left, much more interesting, and less argumentive than you. People will be asking Months down the road robbie who??? No one or two people make the forums an interesting place to come.
As someone said before people come and people go. New people come in and could make the Forums more interesting than they are. None of us are that important to the forums, including myself.
Regards,
-VR
Originally posted by robbie carrobieAs usual, you have made this about Metallica !!
I am killing nothing my friend, on the contrary metallica have killed it for years with their sagginess, I had enough of their tyranny and fought back. Personally I would like to use the opportunity to get changes made to the clan system as highlighted in detail by moonbus, that would put an end to metallica sandbagging once and for all.
Not about how to fix the clan system.
Your obsession with a clan that done nothing but be successful over the years.
Your clan could have been competitive if you hadn't gone down the road of collusion.
But you have painted yourself into a corner.
You have to dip into collusion clans even more now.
This because you that we (Metallica and Wycombe) will catch you if you don't use the 3 clans anymore.
The mathematics doesn't lie. We are gaining on you cleanly.
Until you collect more points from one of your 3 sister clans.
Your clan has collected 236 from one clan, Anti-Metallica, that has -666 net points this year.
How do you explain that to the audience ?? Without opening another thread about me. Or Metallica.
When a neutral party tries to pull you aside and tries to reason with you on your illicit activities, what do you do ??
You scream Metallica Metallica Metallica !!
Face it . Your gig is up !!!
Originally posted by arbeiderI would first of like to thank you for your thoughtful and clean remarks.
There is a book by the Harvard Negotiation Project (Harvard University, Cambridge, MA USA) called Getting to Yes: Negotiating Agreement Without Giving In.
The process they discuss is based on coming to mutually acceptable agreements. The primary strategy is to focus on interests, particularly mutual interests, and not on "positions."
I believe our in ...[text shortened]... pologize for the length of this post. I would have made it shorter but I ran out of time.
JC
I do not necessarily agree with everything you say, but I respect your input.
That being said, I would like to offer my comments.
1 - your comment on Robbie Carrobie's post being the clearest and most concise you have seen on the actual issue. Hmmm .....
This is a public forum, which means it is not limited to the few who post here. Try and put yourself in the shoes of a new subscriber, say someone who just joined the site within the last week. Then read the post from that perspective.
Quote - "I am killing nothing my friend, on the contrary metallica have killed it for years with their sagginess, I had enough of their tyranny and fought back." - Unquote.
Does this sound like something that would make the slightest bit of sense ??
What exactly is "sagginess" ???? "Tyranny" ??? Is this a chess site ?? Or North Korea ??
2 - I suggest that your comments are tinted somewhat.
You say that some players resign games that are not yet lost on the board.
Actually you say "some players from Metallica and other clans" instead of saying some players from some clans.
You specifically single Metallica by name. You could have mentioned other clans. If you care to name them.
In fact many players resign games all over the place. Believe me, you can view some tournaments and see players resign after 2 or 3 moves.
If you want to see sandbagging, enter a tournament !!
In clan play, some players will resign games after the outcome of a challenge has been decided (won or lost).
The real issue here is that some clans have their players resign their games before the challenge has been decided.
Even when some of these players are winning. Or some players resign without making a move. (see McTayto and Vespin)
There is a big difference !!
By the way, artificially lowering a rating needs to be defined.
A person can fight to the end and still have their rating lowered by the same amount.
Let's get back to players resigning games after the challenge has been decided. This is probably happening more
now because of recent system changes put in by the site.
That no clan can have more than 3 challenges in progress with any one clan.
This was brought about by Strategic Ultimatum and University of chess for fun last year with their fiasco.
Because of that fiasco, it is now valid strategy. A clan has to get a challenge in the books so that another challenge can be opened.
3 - you quote Robbie again
robbie carrobie states above “I had enough of their tyranny and fought back.”
Think about this !! Tyranny ?? Tyranny ?? Is this a dictatorship ??
This kind of obsessive hyperbole does NOT describe Metallica !!
Or any other clan. It describes the person throwing this drivel around.
You leaning on this quote does take away somewhat from your otherwise sensible post.
What I see is someone who perceives himself as someone who has been done wrong. Not just on this site, but off this site as well.
That may be just my opinion and I will toss it out there.
He needs to see a "bad guy" out there. And I guess to him, Metallica is it.
It doesn't matter to him that his accusations are not true. He believes it himself.
When he actually does admit his own role in the collusion fiasco this year using the line of
defense "the other party is guilty" then you can draw you own conclusions.
This has long ago stopped being about any guilt of another party or clan.
It has become an obsession to several individuals who have decided to go to any length
to right a wrong. A wrong that exists in their own minds !!
They have gone so far that they have completely exposed themselves.
And they are stuck in their collusion !! They cannot get out of it.
I have already pointed out that if they stopped their challenges with the 3 clans,
they will be caught and passed !!
The clans chasing them are playing clean !!
And Easy Riders are stuck in the mud they are throwing at others.
Those are my thoughts !!!
Thank you for your post.
Originally posted by mghrn55on the contrary as was pointed out you reduced your rating from 1800 to 1600 and are now beating up on 1500 rated players. Perhaps you have another definition of clean that you made up?
I would first of like to thank you for your thoughtful and clean remarks.
I do not necessarily agree with everything you say, but I respect your input.
That being said, I would like to offer my comments.
1 - your comment on Robbie Carrobie's post being the clearest and most concise you have seen on the actual issue. Hmmm .....
This is a public forum ...[text shortened]... in the mud they are throwing at others.
Those are my thoughts !!!
Thank you for your post.
Originally posted by mghrn55It is noteworthy that you and your cronies have resisted every attempt and idea that was proffered to reform the clan system. Why? because it would bust your illegitimate racket. Let it be known that the Easy Riders would welcome reform, welcome a system based on a rise or fall in rating as proffered by moonbus in his excellent suggestions. Welcome a system that rewards good chess, not nefarious sandbagging. Gig is up? it might be up for you but for us its only just beginning!
As usual, you have made this about Metallica !!
Not about how to fix the clan system.
Your obsession with a clan that done nothing but be successful over the years.
Your clan could have been competitive if you hadn't gone down the road of collusion.
But you have painted yourself into a corner.
You have to dip into collusion clans even more now.
Th ...[text shortened]... what do you do ??
You scream Metallica Metallica Metallica !!
Face it . Your gig is up !!!
Originally posted by robbie carrobieOnce again, you attempt to twist words and misreport fiction as fact.
It is noteworthy that you and your cronies have resisted every attempt and idea that was proffered to reform the clan system. Why? because it would bust your illegitimate racket. Let it be known that the Easy Riders would welcome reform, welcome a system based on a rise or fall in rating as proffered by moonbus in his excellent suggestions. Welcom ...[text shortened]... ot nefarious sandbagging. Gig is up? it might be up for you but for us its only just beginning!
When a potential solution is presented that is not flawed, we will not pick it apart.
You see, there are people like you and McTayto and Vespin who look for loopholes.
When common sense (which you seem to lack) shows the flaws, we merely have pointed them out.
The true facts are these. The only way to "fix" this system requires more work that the
lazy administration at RHP is willing to produce.
We can stop the sandbaggers like McTayto, to a degree, but eliminating all other non-clan
games from consideration in the clan rating for ALL players.
That will stop the tournament entries and mass resignations to dump their ratings.
The only problem is, Russ doesn't want to work that hard. He doesn't think the effort
required is worth the outcome.
The fact is, NONE of the proposed solutions have any real effect on the problem, other
than the one we have suggested, which we cannot have because the administration
is not motivated to fix it. The motivation may come in time as they start to feel the bite
from paid subscriptions that start disappearing. Maybe.
Your pompous promotion that your cheating actions between you and the three sisters
to collude together and manufacture points you would not otherwise be able to achieve
on your own merit, under the guise that you are "fighting tyranny and injustice" is simply
more of the same crap you have been shoveling for years here. Your claims are pointed
at me and Metallica, for these "crimes against the world", while you ignore and fail to
include the members of your own cronies who are the real culprits.
I have answered your charges ad nauseum, but you don't seem to be able to grasp the
facts of the matters. Your claim that Metallica "dumps games to lower ratings is flat out
WRONG!! Common sense also would show you are wrong as well, but I know you have
no common sense, so it is way above your head. I am on record MANY different times
and have stated unequivocally that I neither condone nor improvise the resignation of
games for the purposes of manipulating ratings. I have stated that I do not see ANY
merit in completing games (whether in won or lost positions) in a challenge once the
challenge is decided. It becomes a waste of resources to play out the string. That is
a very specific reason that we have employed this practice. YOU have tried to spin
this as merely a way to dump ratings. I realize this is going to be a major stretch for
you to understand, because it requires common sense to understand, so maybe
someone else can explain this to you....but follow the full idea.
1. If all we sought to do was lower ratings, why not just do it the same easy way McTatyo
and several other outside of Metallica, have done for years....just screw up a bunch of
tournaments by entering them, and then do mass resignations?? The reason we don't
is because we aren't trying to dump ratings in the first place.
2. For ANY challenge to come into fruition, BOTH clan leaders MUST agree on the challenge.
This is how it has always been and how it is now. You want everyone to believe that I
have some mystical power that forces the opposition to do our bidding?? LMAO!!
Get a grip their robbie!! I challenge you to find ONE clan leader that can or will produce
proof of anything I have ever done to coerce them to take a challenge from me. I can
produce many leaders who will say quite the opposite, to support my statement.
3. If your claim that Metallica wins by having lopsided or stacked challenges, then how
come we ever lose ANY challenge? How come we have been steamrolled ourselves in
challenges? How come MANY of our challenges are won by 2 points or less? And how
come Metallica has never attempted a low life attempt such as the one you and the
three sisters are pulling with your collusion attempt?? Answer those questions for us.
4. Your position that Metallica gets all of these "unfair challenges" because of "sandbagging"
is also laughable for several reasons. First, Metallica has been under the microscope
for YEARS. There have been a few before you as well who have tried to smear us in
this same way. How in the hell are we able to get away with anything while everyone is
watching every step we take? Is it your assertion that all clan leaders are stupid? Do you
really believe that everyone pretty well knows what caliber each of our members are,
just as I am aware of most of the players on their clans? Why do you think I do not
match a cheat like McTayto against a 1200-1300 player, even though his rating says
that is what he is. Every clan leader vets their challenges differently. Every clan leader
has their own evaluation criteria. You nor I can control that. There are many clan leaders
who will attest to what I am saying here. Sometimes we agree, sometimes we agree to disagree.
There are a handful of clan leaders who will not even entertain a challenge with us.
That is their prerogative, however, those same clan leaders will engage with the crap
contrived by yourself, McTayto and others.
So, how, exactly, am I wielding this magical power you seem to think I possess, while
under the microscope??
5. The "great fix" that Russ installed has not fixed anything, it has created a 200 point
ratings differential between players in a challenge. So, how can a clan leader, such as
myself, set up a challenge where my "1800 level player" whose rating is at say 1660,
set up a challenge for that same player against a player with an 1870 rating? You can't.
Likewise, the multitude of players whose ratings are WELL below their normal level by
over 200 points, or close to that range (I pointed out that you have close to 11 or 12 of
them in your clan now) cannot be matched up against players of their true ratings
because of the ratings spread?? Then, when a challenge is issued where two players
who both fall into this category is issued, you call is sandbagging?? Honestly, you
cannot have it both ways. But the current "fix" handcuffs the clan leaders.
6. The current fix also limits the number of concurrent challenges between any two clans
to be a maximum of 3 at any time. That was an attempt to stop Vespin's Strategic
Ultimatum tactic last year of loading up the truck against a couple of clans and doing
much the same thing you are doing this year. Of course, his efforts included multiple
clan ownership at the same time which made it easier for him to set up patsies. Your
buddy McTayto was involved in that one heavily too, as you well know. Now we watch
as you think you are so clever in setting up your 3 massive challenges at a pop, and
then get your cursory key resignations in multitude, and you stacked sandbagged
players against patsies who couldn't beat them on their best day, and you call yourself
a great leader! Ha, a great sham is what you are. Your moves are being tracked too.
And they are being accurately tracked because you are not even remotely as clever
as you think you are. But, we won't dwell on your low life behavior now.
7. Why are there so many players out there who are willing to lose games to you for
your glorification? What purpose does it serve to be one of your patsies? How do any
of the resolutions proposed deal with this problem, and what will keep it from returning?
There is nothing. This is yet another reason I am not for any of the proposed changes
thus far. They don't FIX anything.
8. As far as resigning games goes, how are you going to set up determiners to look at
a. the player was getting killed and he resigned.
b. the player got bored and quit, regardless of position.
c. the game was resigned because the challenge is over, regardless of board position.
d. the player is a stooge for robbie and they need the points.
I am not aware of anything anyone could write into the software to make these decisions
that you have deigned yourself knowledgeable of.
When someone can produce a plan that will take care of these loopholes (and there
are others I don't have the time to address now) AND you have Russ willing to redesign
the system so it is enforceable, then we can talk. Until then it is all rhetoric, supposition,
and outright BS.
So robbie, the only gig that is up is your attempt to whitewash this system and to try
and lie your way out of your conniving scheme with the three sisters.
Originally posted by shortcircuitWe welcome moonbus suggestion of a system based on ELO rating. Why that should be difficult for you to grasp I have really no idea.
Once again, you attempt to twist words and misreport fiction as fact.
When a potential solution is presented that is not flawed, we will not pick it apart.
You see, there are people like you and McTayto and Vespin who look for loopholes.
When common sense (which you seem to lack) shows the flaws, we merely have pointed them out.
The true facts a ...[text shortened]... sh this system and to try
and lie your way out of your conniving scheme with the three sisters.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieBecause it only treats a symptom...it does not fix the problem.
We welcome moonbus suggestion of a system based on ELO rating. Why that should be difficult for you to grasp I have really no idea.
Second, how will you get Russ to implement the changes necessary to fix the system?
And, for the record, you support the cheating your clan is currently involved in.
I would be leery of ANYTHING you supported.
Originally posted by shortcircuitIt would fix your clans sandbagging thats for sure, especially if there were a rating exclusive to clan games.
Because it only treats a symptom...it does not fix the problem.
Second, how will you get Russ to implement the changes necessary to fix the system?
And, for the record, you support the cheating your clan is currently involved in.
I would be leery of ANYTHING you supported.
Originally posted by SilverstrikerSilverstriker,
I personally think you are killing the clan system which is a shame for the site and your clan as i think you could have had a close battle with metalica this year had you not kept going into silly challenges at the beginning of the year.
There you go. You just didn't use the word CHEATING. We all know what is going on!
Regards,
-VR