1. Subscribermoonbus
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    18 Nov '17 22:46
    mghrn55: "Metallica players played to win every challenge.
    If any games were resigned early, it was because the challenge outcome was already decided. And in a player basis, the player usually resigning the game had already won the other game against that opponent. Meaning that there is no rating change for either player because the games were split. Meaning that the accusations of sandbagging have no validity."


    Have a look at the games between myself and my2sons, Misfits vs. Metallica challenge, completed 24.10.17. The lower boards had won enough games to decide the challenge in favor of Misfits, whereupon my2sons resigned his two games against me at the same time, in both of which he had superior positions. That booted my rating up, and his down, to the point where neither of ours was accurate. He clearly outplayed me, and yet his rating is 100+ points below mine. While this had no effect on the challenge result, it contradicts your claim above, that the resignations had no effect on the players' ratings.
  2. Joined
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    18 Nov '17 22:51
    Originally posted by @moonbus
    mghrn55: "Metallica players played to win every challenge.
    If any games were resigned early, it was because the challenge outcome was already decided. And in a player basis, the player usually resigning the game had already won the other game against that opponent. Meaning that there is no rating change for either player because the games were split. Mean ...[text shortened]... t, it contradicts your claim above, that the resignations had no effect on the players' ratings.
    Even in such a case, within a vey few games the ratings even themselves out towards a level that is more accurate.

    And does it really matter?
  3. SubscriberWycombe Al
    greatest site
    or just a tribute
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    19 Nov '17 00:33
    Originally posted by @mctayto
    What a lively forum without Robbie
    Deny that you miss him now 😀
    http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/teams/scotland/could-scotland-be-invited-to-a-world-cup-of-losers-tournament-1-4616260
  4. Joined
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    19 Nov '17 03:46
    Originally posted by @moonbus
    mghrn55: "Metallica players played to win every challenge.
    If any games were resigned early, it was because the challenge outcome was already decided. And in a player basis, the player usually resigning the game had already won the other game against that opponent. Meaning that there is no rating change for either player because the games were split. Mean ...[text shortened]... t, it contradicts your claim above, that the resignations had no effect on the players' ratings.
    I'll make a couple of comments on your post.
    First of all, we have always had respectable exchanges between us.
    And I don't expect that to change.

    1 - the player in question, my2sons, has had a rating variance (highest to lowest) under 100 (87 to be exact) for the last 90 days.
    That is not exactly stuff with which to raise a red flag or accusations of sandbagging.
    And as you stated, the challenge outcome was already decided in your clan's favor.

    2 - clan chess is team chess. The ultimate goal is to win clan challenges. get the challenges into the books so that we can set more challenges with the same clan.
    As I had stated in my post, this is necessitated because site admin had to put in a limit of 3 challenges in progress between 2 clans at anytime.
    That is because of the shenanigans of the 4 colluding clans in 2016.

    3 - I did not speak for my2sons in my post, but myself only.
    That being I will not resign clearly won games. I have resigned games that I was losing and chose not to fight on when the challenge was decided.
    I also offer draws on close games in decided challenges.
    As we all know, draws have very little effect on player ratings if the players are evenly matched.
    But you can be sure that if it was December 31st and I was sitting on games where Metallica has a won challenge, and we need the points for the title, I will resign my games in a heartbeat !!
    I will have no problems dealing with the squawkers when they start flapping their gums at me !!
    The clan result will come first.
    You can take that to the bank !!

    Finally, I had proposed in site ideas, that along with a separate player rating for clan games, I had also suggested a change to the rating formula that would shrink the rating change after completed clan games.
    That would have addressed the complaints of rating manipulations.

    In summing up, Metallica (and other clans) players do not resign clan games to manipulate their ratings.
    But rather to collect the challenge wins for their clan.
    There are still those out there who continue to insist that rating manipulation was the big problem out there.
    When the real problem was the challenge manipulation, i.e. collusion, which was the problem that had to be, and was addressed.
  5. Subscribermoonbus
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    19 Nov '17 07:422 edits
    @mghrn55 : thank you for your respectful and detailed reply to my post.

    mghrn55 :
    "1 - the player in question, my2sons, has had a rating variance (highest to lowest) under 100 (87 to be exact) for the last 90 days. That is not exactly stuff with which to raise a red flag or accusations of sandbagging."

    moonbus: the rating of the player in question shows a five-year variance ranging from 1697 to 2100, or 400 points. I looked over his games before agreeing to take part in the proposed challenge and realized, based on the quality of his play (irrespective of rating), that I would be up against a player seriously under-rated at the time of the challenge, against whom I would probably struggle to merely draw. I advised my captain of this; she decided to go ahead with the challenge anyway on the strength of the other pairings. In answer to startreader's question, "does it matter?" — yes, it does, in the case of a player whose rating has not 'evened out' over the course of many games. Any clan captain would be well-advised to take this into account when considering a challenge involving this particular player.

    mghrn55 :
    "2 - clan chess is team chess. The ultimate goal is to win clan challenges. get the challenges into the books so that we can set more challenges with the same clan. As I had stated in my post, this is necessitated because site admin had to put in a limit of 3 challenges in progress between 2 clans at anytime. That is because of the shenanigans of the 4 colluding clans in 2016."

    moonbus: Not to split hairs here, but clan chess is not team chess. This is not merely a semantic quibble. Team chess, whether professionally internationally organized, or here at RHP, is more narrowly regulated than clan chess at RHP. Teams are all the same size and play to a fixed schedule. FIDE and USCF rules explicitly state that every player shall play to the best of his ability at all times. In team chess, any player who resigned a won game would get a severe reprimand from the tournament director, and any team which did so systematically would be disqualified.

    There was much discussion last year whether the clan captains wanted to see clan chess regulated to a similar degree; the consensus was that they did not. I accept that and have decided to stay on for a while to see whether the modifications made to the clan system are to my liking. I am willing to give them a chance.

    mghrn55 :
    3 - "I did not speak for my2sons in my post, but myself only. That being I will not resign clearly won games. I have resigned games that I was losing and chose not to fight on when the challenge was decided. I also offer draws on close games in decided challenges."

    moonbus: I am pleased to hear that. In the case of my two games, it was not so. My opponent resigned in clearly superior positions.

    mghrn55 :
    "I had proposed in site ideas, that along with a separate player rating for clan games, I had also suggested a change to the rating formula that would shrink the rating change after completed clan games. That would have addressed the complaints of rating manipulations."

    moonbus: quite a number of proposals were made to redress some grievances. I would have supported yours and said so then; I say it again now. Unfortunately, the modifications actually made address only the symptom, not the causes, of the grievances; for example, the arbitrary move limit. This has already resulted in some 2017-challenge games being discounted because they either timed out or went to checkmate under the move limit, and the clan challenge result was tipped the other way because of it. For those clans involved, the cure was no better than the disease.

    mghrn55 :
    "In summing up, Metallica (and other clans) players do not resign clan games to manipulate their ratings. But rather to collect the challenge wins for their clan. There are still those out there who continue to insist that rating manipulation was the big problem out there. When the real problem was the challenge manipulation, i.e. collusion, which was the problem that had to be, and was addressed."

    moonbus:
    You're reversing symptom and cause. The reason why certain clans started colluding was that they were aggrieved at what was perceived to be systematic rating manipulation. While I did not agree with their methods, it occurred to me that their grievance was not entirely baseless. Not being privy to any other player's intentions, I am willing to accept on your so-say that no Metallica player resigns won games in order to artificially drop his rating; nonetheless the effect is the same, whatever the motive.

    Yours cordially,
    moonbus
  6. Subscribershortcircuit
    master of disaster
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    19 Nov '17 16:50
    Originally posted by @moonbus
    @mghrn55 : thank you for your respectful and detailed reply to my post.

    mghrn55 :
    "1 - the player in question, my2sons, has had a rating variance (highest to lowest) under 100 (87 to be exact) for the last 90 days. That is not exactly stuff with which to raise a red flag or accusations of sandbagging."

    moonbus: the rating of the player in question sh ...[text shortened]... ng; nonetheless the effect is the same, whatever the motive.

    Yours cordially,
    moonbus
    For the umpteenth time, this is NOT FIDE rated chess.
    This is clan chess, and YES, it is TEAM chess.
    The fact you don't agree is not germane to the truth.

    I have stated, ad nauseum, that we will resign games that are no longer necessary
    because the challenge has been decided. This frees up time for other challenges.

    I have also stated this many times....most of the ratings in here are BS and not even close. Anyone who chooses to believe they are, are naive.

    Last, if you don't like clan chess for what it is, why do you play it? Secondly, why do you persist to comment on it?

    And, because I did play FIDE events for several years, and I played for my High School team in FIDE rated events, I can tell you with certainty that there were many games that were resigned, or draws agreed to when outcomes had already been determined in the team competition. I saw it done by several teams and the Tournament Director was not ignorant. So, please, do not say it does not happen in FIDE events, because it does.

    Lastly, I would appreciate it if you would back off your condescending accusations of Metallica's play. I am the captain, and I am the strategist. You cannot claim something that isn't true to be fact, because you think it is. You are dead wrong. If you have an axe to grind, it is with me. I have defended my actions repeatedly and have done nothing wrong. I am sorry you seem to be offended, but, as I have stated before, maybe this isn't a game for you. Another thing that is true is that Metallica does not cheat. We do lose our share of matches. Many of our won matches were very close. We also don't cower and hide from other clans as several in here do.

    Now you can unload on me. I will ready myself to lose sleep.

    Have a nice day, and please direct any accusations you may have to me, and not toward any other member in Metallica. Thanks.
  7. Subscribermoonbus
    Über-Nerd
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    19 Nov '17 20:08
    @shortcircuit

    I was replying to a claim by mghrn55, that thrown games do not affect players' ratings, and I pointed out that in one case known to me, the claim is false. It was entirely appropriate for me to reply to him directly.


    We've all heard your rationale for throwing games regardless of board position. You think it is solely an internal matter for Metallica, "clan management" you once called it. You're wrong about that; it is not solely an internal matter for your clan. When one of your chaps throws games he could have won, it bumps someone else's rating up. So now that player has to throw games to get his rating back down where it accurately reflects his playing strength and he can get a fair pairing in some other challenge. But that still doesn't even things out, because the player he throws games at then has his rating artificially inflated and now the second man can't get fair pairings either, and so on and so on. Your 'purely internal' policy of managing clan games has knock-on effects which skew other players' ratings and pairings, even in clans which may never play your clan. If the ratings here are useless for arranging fair pairings, maybe it is because you made them so. In that case, why have ratings at all? We might as well dispense with ratings in clans and just have 1st boards, 2d boards, 3d boards, and so on. Just like in real TEAM chess.

    I'm sure you won't lose any sleep over this. After all, I'm a small fish in a big pond. Good night.
  8. Subscribershortcircuit
    master of disaster
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    19 Nov '17 20:20
    Originally posted by @moonbus
    @shortcircuit

    I was replying to a claim by mghrn55, that thrown games do not affect players' ratings, and I pointed out that in one case known to me, the claim is false. It was entirely appropriate for me to reply to him directly.


    We've all heard your rationale for throwing games regardless of board position. You think it is solely an internal matte ...[text shortened]... sure you won't lose any sleep over this. After all, I'm a small fish in a big pond. Good night.
    Now you are finally coming to grips that the ratings don't mean anything.
    I weep for the poor player who has his rating falsely inflated by a resignation.
    How do you think ratings are affected by TIME OUT claims?
    How about MASS TOURNAMENT RESIGNATIONS (a la Mctayto)?
    You act as if the 15-20 ratings points max they receive skews their rating forever??
    Please, you play with numbers and your argument has no merit and holds no water.
    The pairings BS has been around for years. Way before I got here, and it will remain when I am gone.

    You are so screwed up. You are STILL trying to make clan chess to be like FIDE chess.
    It isn't going to be so. When you understand that, and accept it, maybe your complaints will cease.
  9. Subscribermy2sons
    Retired
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    19 Nov '17 23:28
    I thought this thread was about Robbie, so I don't think dragging my play into this has any business being discussed. That being said, my decision as to whether or not to play my games to completion is mine and mine alone. I only play clan games and will resign any clan game once the challenge has been decided so I can concentrate on clan games where I can make a difference. My all time high rating is 2100 so anyone can see what my potential is if I put my mind to it. If you don't take the time to research that before challenging me, that's your tough luck.
  10. Subscribermoonbus
    Über-Nerd
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    20 Nov '17 05:46
    Originally posted by @my2sons
    ... my decision as to whether or not to play my games to completion is mine and mine alone. I only play clan games and will resign any clan game once the challenge has been decided so I can concentrate on clan games where I can make a difference. My all time high rating is 2100 so anyone can see what my potential is if I put my mind to it. If you don't take the time to research that before challenging me, that's your tough luck.
    I did. I knew what I was up against. Good play, by the way. I was looking forward to playing out those games and learning something from a better player than myself.
  11. SubscriberVESPIN
    RIP Mghrn55
    United States
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    20 Nov '17 07:43
    Originally posted by @roma45
    Robbie and mctayto are only mentioned When someone starts a daft thread about them.
    It would be rude not to reply to the insane rambling of mctayto.
    The guy obviously has no life .( In my opinion) and lurks about here for some unknown reason
    Robbie is banned for whatever he said to admin that bridge is burnt. Can't say he was not warned.
    Mctayto should ...[text shortened]... t cheating harsh but true.

    Lemon is a sand bagger who preys on easy victims for his lame clan
    The only thing I can comment on really is Mac. Trust me, this guy has the best life going. I wont go into detail, as it is his business, but he wants for nothing, has a wonderful family, plays sports, golfs at some of the most beautiful courses I have ever seen in my life, vacations when he likes, a loving family, and although everyone attacks to make themselves feel better, the guy is a genius.

    He doesn't care what people think of him. Trust me on this. He is not the man everyone thinks or thinks they know. Startreader makes me laugh. She doesn't get it why Mac would post something, which is what? Six months between one post and never replies to anyone? Padger understood it.

    Robbie did not tell me what he said so I have no idea what was said that could have been so bad.

    I don't know lemondrop personally. But to me, he plays a ton of chess. I don't consider him a sandbagger. He wins a ton of games, but loses games to. People know he is good but his rating will go up and down just like everyone else.

    But his never drops so low that it is really bad. He plays my best guy is around a 1500 hundred player. I think that is more than fair. Anyone who agrees to play him, it is up to the leader to decide what is best.

    He is doing in completely on his own which will explain his rating fluctuating a bit. If a leader wants to put a 1300, 1400, 1500 rated player against him I don't think there is anything wrong with that. I could easily pull out most peoples ratings and call them sandbaggers because I know they are far better than they are. But when I make a challenge, I adjust to it. I think by now all the clans know who is good, great, or even better, despite what their rating is.

    I give him credit to play as much as he does. I cant speak as to anything else. But I think people are being to hard on him. He plays, and if he wins, then I say great job.

    Just my humble opinion. I have to say this site is not the same without Mac or Robbie. You guys have to admit you enjoyed debating Robbie. Mac never posted much. Very little. He should never have been punished like that. The new rules changed a lot. He should have been given a chance as a loyal subscriber.

    Hope your well and Happy Holiday's early........
  12. SubscriberVery Rusty
    Treat Everyone Equal
    Halifax, Nova Scotia
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    20 Nov '17 23:46
    Originally posted by @vespin
    Just my humble opinion. I have to say this site is not the same without Mac or Robbie.

    Hope your well and Happy Holiday's early........
    little v.

    You correct the site is much better without all their B.S.....Now if you would stop going on with your long rants that would suit the majority just fine.

    -VR
  13. Joined
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    Moves
    74414
    26 Nov '17 23:05
    Originally posted by @my2sons
    I thought this thread was about Robbie, so I don't think dragging my play into this has any business being discussed. That being said, my decision as to whether or not to play my games to completion is mine and mine alone. I only play clan games and will resign any clan game once the challenge has been decided so I can concentrate on clan games where I c ...[text shortened]... it. If you don't take the time to research that before challenging me, that's your tough luck.
    You deliberately lower your rating after a match has been decided. "So you can concentrate on other games", give me a break, you do it because it lowers your rating so you get an easy opponent the next game. It's rating manipulation and it's cheating.

    Everyone can see your 2100 capability but the system will only let clan leaders give you 2050 competition at best. To my understanding an opponent has to be within 200 rating points. What a joke!
  14. Subscribershortcircuit
    master of disaster
    funny farm
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    27 Nov '17 03:13
    Originally posted by @knightstalker47
    You deliberately lower your rating after a match has been decided. "So you can concentrate on other games", give me a break, you do it because it lowers your rating so you get an easy opponent the next game. It's rating manipulation and it's cheating.

    Everyone can see your 2100 capability but the system will only let clan leaders give you 2050 c ...[text shortened]... tition at best. To my understanding an opponent has to be within 200 rating points. What a joke!
    You are either an idiot or you haven't been paying attention to my comments for years.
    If you are dumb enough to think any of these ratings, yours included, are accurate,
    then I have some lake front property to sell to you in the desert.
  15. Subscriberradioactive69
    Fun, fun fun!!
    On the beach
    Joined
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    67860
    27 Nov '17 07:12
    Originally posted by @shortcircuit
    You are either an idiot or you haven't been paying attention to my comments for years.
    If you are dumb enough to think any of these ratings, yours included, are accurate,
    then I have some lake front property to sell to you in the desert.
    Not even sure what it has to do with the freeloading non-sub scum.

    If he ever shells out the money for a sub, joins a clan and plays some clan games, then he can comment in here. Until then, ignore the moron.
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