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  1. 18 Sep '13 11:49
    Berlioz' Symphony Fantastique ushered in programmatic music which in the end influenced Wagner in his ideal of gesamkuntswerke which leads to the enormous masterwork music dramas.
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  2. Subscriber sonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    18 Sep '13 12:06
    Originally posted by scacchipazzo
    Berlioz' Symphony Fantastique ushered in programmatic music which in the end influenced Wagner in his ideal of gesamkuntswerke which leads to the enormous masterwork music dramas.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DWjI1uLSzw
    It's funny, I put that word in a german-english translator and it couldn't do it, just returned the same word to the english side. gesamkuntswerk: what does it mean?
  3. 18 Sep '13 12:10
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    It's funny, I put that word in a german-english translator and it couldn't do it, just returned the same word to the english side. gesamkuntswerk: what does it mean?
    gesamkunstwerke (note the spelling)
  4. Subscriber Pianoman1
    Nil desperandum
    18 Sep '13 21:27
    Originally posted by scacchipazzo
    Berlioz' Symphony Fantastique ushered in programmatic music which in the end influenced Wagner in his ideal of gesamkuntswerke which leads to the enormous masterwork music dramas.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DWjI1uLSzw
    Hugely influential?

    Berlioz, like a lot of composers, loved the ladies and his Symphonie fantastique was famously inspired by his stormy relationship with the Irish actress Harriet Smithson. He was completely obsessed with her – so much so, in fact, that she initially thought him to be insane. The couple eventually married – but they were far from blissfully happy. Instead, it turned out that she’d entered into the marriage only for financial reasons, and they eventually parted company. 

    Symphonie Fantastique was premiered in 1830 during one of Berlioz’s periods of intense, pre-nuptial infatuation with Harriet. It’s really one long, musical expression of his passion, embodied in the person of a struggling artist who is mired in depression and seeking solace for the fact that his cries of desire go unanswered. 

    Symphonie Fantastique is, in my view, a self-absorbed work whose only influence, particularly on Wagner, was the idée fixe.
  5. 19 Sep '13 01:29
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    It's funny, I put that word in a german-english translator and it couldn't do it, just returned the same word to the english side. gesamkuntswerk: what does it mean?
    Wagner's ideal of total art work or global art work, in his case his approach of controlling all creative aspects of his music dramas from libretto, music, staging, lighting, even going as far as designing a theater according to his grandiose conception of his art. German words don't always translate well or exactly.
  6. 19 Sep '13 01:30
    Originally posted by NoEarthlyReason
    gesamkunstwerke (note the spelling)
    Oops! My German spelling is way bad. Thanks for correcting me!
  7. 19 Sep '13 01:39
    Originally posted by Pianoman1
    Hugely influential?

    Berlioz, like a lot of composers, loved the ladies and his Symphonie fantastique was famously inspired by his stormy relationship with the Irish actress Harriet Smithson. He was completely obsessed with her – so much so, in fact, that she initially thought him to be insane. The couple eventually married – but they were far from blis ...[text shortened]... ew, a self-absorbed work whose only influence, particularly on Wagner, was the idée fixe.
    Even if only for the idee fixe it would go down in history as having had enormous influence. Robert Greenberg: "The symphonie fantastique placed Berlioz at thee forefront post-Beethoven avante-garde who believed the music of the future was a composite art form, a combination of music and literature." Simply because it emanates as an extension of his obsession for Smithson is indifferent/irrelevant to the fact that it was tremendously different from anything composed prior to it regardless of how self absorbed and demented Berlioz may have been. I am convinced that Wagner and other Romantic era composers were quite taken by this work and other Berlioz works like his Grande Messe des Mortes, Symphonie Funebre et Triomphale, Les Troyens, Harold in Italy and myriad other works.
  8. Subscriber sonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    20 Sep '13 11:13
    Originally posted by NoEarthlyReason
    gesamkunstwerke (note the spelling)
    That didn't translate either, but I get the idea it means total artistic control down to when the singers can pee🙂
  9. 20 Sep '13 11:32
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    That didn't translate either, but I get the idea it means total artistic control down to when the singers can pee🙂
    That part is simple. Wagner never let his singers pee. It helped their singing stamina and bladder control assists diaphragm control. LOL I am not kidding either.
  10. Subscriber sonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    24 Sep '13 21:07
    Originally posted by scacchipazzo
    That part is simple. Wagner never let his singers pee. It helped their singing stamina and bladder control assists diaphragm control. LOL I am not kidding either.
    Really nice guy, eh.
  11. 24 Sep '13 22:21
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    Really nice guy, eh.
    Great artists are also frequently tyrants. Beethoven would get complaints for the horrendously difficult double bass parts he wrote in his symphonies, especially 5th, 8th and 9th. He responded: "Do you think I care a fig about double bass players when I write my music?" Bach was hugely demanding, unrelenting and a perfectionist. Jean-Baptiste Lully was such an irascible and demanding conductor he is the only known fatality of the profession, dying from stabbing himself with his conductor's staff(17th century). There's a certain need for termagants in music.
  12. Standard member Soothfast
    0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,
    25 Sep '13 05:21
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    That didn't translate either, but I get the idea it means total artistic control down to when the singers can pee🙂
    Gesamtkunstwerk.
  13. Standard member Bosse de Nage
    Zellulärer Automat
    25 Sep '13 07:49
    Originally posted by Soothfast
    Gesamtkunstwerk.
    It's got a twerk in it.

    Now it's there for all to see. Aletheia as I live and breathe.
  14. 25 Sep '13 11:31 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    It's got a twerk in it.

    Now it's there for all to see. Aletheia as I live and breathe.
    That's why we need all sorts of points of view. Now that may be a way to promote Wagnerianism! Or repel people who dislike Cyrus' exemplar of twerking!

    As it turns out I never did misspell the word.\:

    Ge·samt·kunst·werk
    [guh-zahmt-koonst-verk] Show IPA
    noun German.
    total art work; an artistic creation, as the music dramas of Richard Wagner, that synthesizes the elements of music, drama, spectacle, dance, etc.
    There is werk, but no twerk in it, Bosse de Nage!
  15. 25 Sep '13 19:28
    Originally posted by scacchipazzo
    That's why we need all sorts of points of view. Now that may be a way to promote Wagnerianism! Or repel people who dislike Cyrus' exemplar of twerking!

    As it turns out I never did misspell the word.\:

    Ge·samt·kunst·werk
    [guh-zahmt-koonst-verk] Show IPA
    noun German.
    total art work; an artistic creation, as the music dramas of Richard Wagner, tha ...[text shortened]... ments of music, drama, spectacle, dance, etc.
    There is werk, but no twerk in it, Bosse de Nage!
    Actually, you spelt the third syllable 'kunts'. I think Gesamkunstwerke is the plural, and Gesamkunstwerk is the singular.

    Whatever, being pedantic aside, German can be a very difficult language for Anglophones. I wish I knew how to speak it--for one thing, I've always imagined I'd might begin to appreciate the great German composers in a subtle new way (by which I mean not just the vocal music, but all of it).