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20 Years On Death Row

20 Years On Death Row

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Originally posted by spruce112358
Unlike 'collateral damage', the notion of the death penalty goes back a long way, to the Mosaic Law of "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth." Throughout Western history, if you killed someone, your life was forfeit. It is very basic, fundamental principle.

It is such a simple and elegant principle, you can even explain it to a gradeschooler -- if as "dead" to the world as any of his victims.

Sentence to be carried out the same day.
That's Hammurabi, not Moses. At least I think Hammurabi wrote it first.

Are Egypt and the early Jewish tribes "western"?

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Originally posted by znsho
Go on Sam the Sham, do it. Close your eyes and feel the intolearble pain of a corrupt legal system legally killing their teenaged son at a precise time. A SON, who they love. Go on. Do it, Sam the Sham. Picture your teenaged son / daughter being hanged wrongfully but legally.
While I do that, I'll picture your son raping my daughter and then going free on a technicality.

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Does anyone care about the 2 year old girl?

GRANNY.

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http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur-crime-murders

Showing latest available data. Rank Countries Amount (top to bottom)
#1 India: 37,170
#2 Russia: 28,904
#3 Colombia: 26,539
#4 South Africa: 21,995
#5 Mexico: 13,829
#6 United States: 12,658
#7 Venezuela: 8,022
#8 Thailand: 5,140
#9 Ukraine: 4,418
#10 Indonesia: 2,204
#11 Poland: 2,170
#12 France: 1,051
#13 Belarus: 1,013
#14 Germany: 960
#15 Korea, South: 955
#16 Zimbabwe: 912
#17 Jamaica: 887
#18 United Kingdom: 850
#19 Zambia: 797
#20 Italy: 746
#21 Yemen: 697
#22 Japan: 637
#23 Romania: 560
#24 Malaysia: 551
#25 Spain: 494
#26 Canada: 489
#27 Papua New Guinea: 465
#28 Kyrgyzstan: 413
#29 Lithuania: 370
#30 Moldova: 348
#31 Bulgaria: 332
#32 Australia: 302
#33 Portugal: 247
#34 Costa Rica: 245
#35 Georgia: 239
#36 Latvia: 238
#37 Chile: 235
#38 Azerbaijan: 226
#39 Hungary: 205
#40 Netherlands: 183
#41 Czech Republic: 174
#42 Uruguay: 154
#43 Finland: 148
#44 Slovakia: 143
#45 Estonia: 143
#46 Armenia: 127
#47 Tunisia: 113
#48 Saudi Arabia: 105
#49 Greece: 81
#50 Switzerland: 69
#51 Denmark: 58
#52 Norway: 49
#53 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of: 47
#54 New Zealand: 45
#55 Ireland: 38
#56 Hong Kong: 38
#57 Slovenia: 36
#58 Mauritius: 26
#59 Seychelles: 6
#60 Iceland: 5
#61 Dominica: 2
#62 Qatar: 1
Total: 180,304
Weighted average: 2,908.1

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7159705.stm

"Valentine had pointed a sawn-off shotgun at him but Mr Madle hit him with the box and ran off only to be shot in the leg.

Mr Madle lost five pints of blood, spent four months in hospital and could only walk with the aid of a crutch.
The guard, who had received a bravery award from Essex Police, was in constant pain. Shotgun pellets had shattered his leg and he had lost more than three stone after having part of his stomach removed.


CONVICTIONS SINCE LAW CHANGE
Jul 1999 - Craig Coleman, from Middlesbrough, was jailed for life for murder. His baby son, Craig, died 15 months after being violently shaken.
Mar 2000 - Tracey Munro jailed for 12 months for causing death by dangerous driving. Doreen Gregson, 69, was run down and paralysed by Munro but died of her injuries just over a year later.
Apr 2005 - Keith Stephenson jailed for three years for manslaughter. He had originally been given community service after bludgeoning a man but his victim died 18 months later.
Dec 2007 - Troy Tkaczek, 22, admits murder of 19-year-old Sam Armstrong in an incident in North Walsham, Norfolk. Mr Armstrong died 17 months after a street brawl.


Three convicted of murder


Law change

In August 1995 he finally succumbed to his injuries.

But Valentine and the two other robbers could not be charged with murder because their victim died more than "a year and a day" after the injuries he received.

The law, which had been around since 1278, was widely seen as being anomalous and in 1996 it was scrapped by then Home Secretary Michael Howard, who pointed out that advances in medicine meant people could be kept alive for much longer nowadays.
"

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Originally posted by spruce112358
Actually, S the S is right. 'Not guilty' is not a synonym for 'innocent'.

Think of three classes -- 'Guilty', 'innocent', and 'we don't know'. 'Not guilty' comprises 'innocent' + 'we don't know'.

So the finding of 'guilt' based on tainted evidence is reversed to 'not guilty'. But that does not make them innocent.
u forgot "not fair".

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Originally posted by znsho
You're in denial. The Guildford four were declared innocent. Timothy Evans was innocent - it was the insane physician who did it. Dereck Bentley was hanged on the basis of 'let him have it' whilst under arrest. Nineteen years old. A child of two parents. Picture yourself with his parents at the precise time of his hanging, a teenager. Go on Sam the Sham, do i ...[text shortened]... ally.

The legal system gets it wrong. Face facts. The legal system condones legal murder.
hey, znsho, imagine your daughter is dating this guy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Jana_Shearer

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Originally posted by spruce112358
That's a consequence of the adversarial system. The Judge and the Jury listen to both sides doing their darndest, and make the call. Their is no inherent bias/corruption in the system -- I'm not sure where you got that.

The alternative is what -- to have both prosecution and defense sit down over coffee and come up with a meaningful compromise? It's ...[text shortened]... corruption and falsifying evidence; but changing the adversarial system will not help that.
You may or may not be correct and perhaps I am being naively idealist. However, sometimes I think 'Yes, the system should be sit down with coffee...' What I mean is, perhaps a body of persons from all walks of life should be appointed at arriving, impartially, at the truth of a particular case.

Not all contries use the peer-jury system. The peer-jury suystem is not without problems.

One major change that could prevent misscarriages of justice is to TAKE AWAY the pressure from the police to 'get a result'. I.e. remove 'quotas, minimium targets etc' anbd do not penalise the police if no arrests are made in a particular period.

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Originally posted by AThousandYoung
While I do that, I'll picture your son raping my daughter and then going free on a technicality.
That's my point. Remove the technicality. Arrive at the truth in each case, not some kind of game between prosecution and defense.

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Originally posted by znsho
You may or may not be correct and perhaps I am being naively idealist. However, sometimes I think 'Yes, the system should be sit down with coffee...' What I mean is, perhaps a body of persons from all walks of life should be appointed at arriving, impartially, at the truth of a particular case.

Not all contries use the peer-jury system. The peer-jury suyst ...[text shortened]... argets etc' anbd do not penalise the police if no arrests are made in a particular period.
Where did you get the bizarre idea that the police have a quota system for arrests? My God..........you are very young, aren't you?

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Originally posted by zeeblebot
hey, znsho, imagine your daughter is dating this guy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Jana_Shearer
Yes, I read an article about this case in the Times. Weird. There was a weirder one from Germany a few years back. The victim WANTED to be killed and eaten.

But, what is your point? In what way did hanging the innocents Timothy Evans / Dereck Bentlety help prevent consumption of human flesh by a nut case?

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Originally posted by Sam The Sham
Where did you get the bizarre idea that the police have a quota system for arrests? My God..........you are very young, aren't you?
I can assure you ther police in the UK have targets. Maybe not in USA, but in this dumb-assed country, yes. Likewise, traffic wardens must fufill their quota! It is hardly surprsing we get tickets for being 0.1cm over the yellow line!

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Originally posted by HumeA
"The question of Carter’s actual guilt or innocence remains a strongly polarizing one. However, this much is certain: either the criminal justice system released a triple murderer from the punishment that two separate juries had recommended, or it imprisoned an innocent man for almost 20 years."

Taken from the wiki page...

It doesn't quite sound 'perfect ...[text shortened]... his life taken, to being released -- does this not spell problems with the judicial system?
You are looking for perfection in a human system of justice?
Kelly

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Originally posted by HumeA
"The question of Carter’s actual guilt or innocence remains a strongly polarizing one. However, this much is certain: either the criminal justice system released a triple murderer from the punishment that two separate juries had recommended, or it imprisoned an innocent man for almost 20 years."

Taken from the wiki page...

It doesn't quite sound 'perfect ...[text shortened]... his life taken, to being released -- does this not spell problems with the judicial system?
It spells trouble because liberals who have a broken moral compass would be compassionate to murders, thieves, arsonists, rapists, etc., and turn their noses up at victims and their families.

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Originally posted by der schwarze Ritter
It spells trouble because liberals who have a broken moral compass would be compassionate to murders, thieves, arsonists, rapists, etc., and turn their noses up at victims and their families.
Christ said we are to show compassion to all of God's children, not just the ones we like. However showing compassion does not mean that we ignore our obligation to protect society from criminals.