12 Aug 07
Here's a rather thought provoking link:
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM
Of course Rummel doesn't really have 100% credibility in many genuinely academic quarters because of his selectivity and his openly partisan motivations and techniques. The omission of the Belgian genocide in 'The Congo' (10,000,000 dead) in the first decade of the C20th is perhaps the most glaring example: it undermines Rummel's elaborate theory about the difference between 'non-democracies' and 'democracies'. But it's worth a look nevertheless. It serves to remind us of just how catastrophic and murderous National Socialism and communism were last century. Breathtaking. Ghastly.
12 Aug 07
Originally posted by Wajoma"...the current pop (of Congo) is just under 3 000 000"???
This 10 000 000 dead in the Congo at the beginning of the 20th century sounds awfully heavy, especially considering the current pop is just under 3 000 000. Where did this info come from.
What happened in the Congo is perhaps the most overlooked genocide of the 20th Century. British diplomat in the Congo, Roger Casement, estimated in his 1904 report that as many as 3 million Congolese were murdered. This was subsequently cited in Gilbert's "History of the Twentieth Century"; also in Colin Legum's "Congo Disaster (1972)". Then there's Peter Forbath's "The River Congo (1977)" which found evidence of at least 5 million killed. John Gunther, in "Inside Africa (1953)" calcuated the toll to be 5-8 million deaths. Adam Hochschild wrote the widely respected "Leopold's Ghost, (1998)" in which he argued that 10 million, or half the original population, perished. Encyclopedia Britannica's entry on "Congo Free State" argues that population declined from 20 or 30 million to 8 million. Fredric Wertham in "A Sign For Cain: An Exploration of Human Violence (1966)" cited evidence that the population of the Congo dropped dropped from 30 million to 8.5 million, a loss of 21.5 million. I tend to opt for the moderate 10,000,000 figure.
Rummel, incidentally, ever the hardnose advocate of 'democracy', and more importantly of his own hypothesis, credited the democratic Belgians with a mere 25,000 deaths in the 1900-1910 period, bless him. (Let's hope all his other numbers are good, then, yes?).
And, er... the current population of Congo is 60,000,000 not 3,000,000. The 3,000,000 number you cite possibly relates to the 3,800,000 figure which is the number who were thought to have died in the civil war there between 1998 and 2005 (and still continues). The bloodiest armed conflict since Word War II, or so they say. Some places are just off the radar, aren't they?
12 Aug 07
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Originally posted by FMFThanks for that. I had no idea.
"...the current pop (of Congo) is just under 3 000 000"???
What happened in the Congo is perhaps the most overlooked genocide of the 20th Century. British diplomat in the Congo, Roger Casement, estimated in his 1904 report that as many as 3 million Congolese were murdered. This was subsequently cited in Gilbert's "History of the Twentieth Century"; also in Co r II, or so they say. Some places are just off the radar, aren't they?
Was Belgian a democracy at the time? The Belgian Congo surely wasn't. Rummel also draws the parallel between freedom = less violent society and tyranny/totalitarianism = violence/murderous state, and as far as I can see is not specifically a hard nose advocate of democracy. Tyranny by the mob can be as oppressive as tyranny of the state.
It's looking like a Congo could be a candidate for the most lethal/dangerous/slaughtering people.
Edit: If you had to recommend one of those books which would it be.
12 Aug 07
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Originally posted by WajomaAbsolutely. I've had high hooves removed by my own post! So much for my America theory!
It's looking like a Congo could be a candidate for the most lethal/dangerous/slaughtering people.
I still find idealogues like Rummel problematical. If he did a bit of genuinely academic sniffing around here in Indonesia, he would find that there are some meticulously non-partisan historians here who think as many as 4,000,000 people might have been murdered between October 1965 and April 1966. That's 4 million in a mere 6 months! I've personally spoken to one of the researchers who have been juggling that horrific statistic and applying some genuine academic rigour to it. It may be an overestimate of course, and 2,500,000 seems to be a figure around which a consensus might be built.
This is still a scary place sometimes and I wouldn't post these few sentences on an Indonesian web site if I thought I could be traced to my Indonesian address.
1,500,000 is quoted in the domesticated media here. 800,000 is the lowest figure ever mentioned but the fanatical pro-Suharto people don't bother hawking that one anymore. Back in the early 90s the 'Security Minister' Moerdiano had a Jack Nicholson moment (ie: goaded by a smarmy journalist - Tom Cruise - until the macho-affirming truth is blurted out) and he claimed 3,000,000.
So Indonesia may have been the worst "democide" of the C20th in terms of how many were killed in such a short time and yet Rummel doesn't even mention Indonesia, presumably because Suharto was a U.S. client.
And Rummel reckons it was 25,000 in The Congo. And then there's his bizarre handling of Vietnam too... "1,670,000 Murdered by The Vietnamese War State". Can he simply not bring himself to type the letters USA? Even Americans (of all political hues, although not all Americans of course) admit they killed 3,000,000 in Vietnam.
And as for Belgium... no, of course your suspicions are spot on. But Rummel is well known for his when-it-suits-what-he's-saying definitions of democracy. Sorry Wajoma, but I think Rummel is the kind of 'academic' Sean Hannity quotes on Fox TV!
[oooh, that was a low sarcastic blow!]
Adam Hochschild's book is robust and readable.
13 Aug 07
Originally posted by FMFWell,it's like this: The 3 million number is slightly exagerated. When we killed the enemy we would cut off his head, arms, legs and each of these parts would be counted as 6 individuals. You must have known this. John Kerry knew this. American Traitor Bitch Jane Fonda Knew this. You didn't know this?😕
Absolutely. I've had high hooves removed by my own post! So much for my America theory!
I still find idealogues like Rummel problematical. If he did a bit of genuinely academic sniffing around here in Indonesia, he would find that there are some meticulously non-partisan historians here who think as many as 4,000,000 people might have been murdered between O ...[text shortened]... at was a low sarcastic blow!]
Adam Hochschild's book is robust and readable.