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Originally posted by normbenignhe action clause of the text is "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed.
The actual text of the 2nd amendment without commentary inserted. The action clause of the text is "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
The right of the people, not the m ...[text shortened]... ly doubt you are going to change. Your opinion of my manhood could not be less important to me.
conditioned by the first. even if you were going to listen to what a bunch of 18th century slave owners wanted
you don't get to pick and choose, if you are going to keep bashing over the head with this second amendment.
it's funny how you hold this sacrosanct while breaking the others whenever you feel like it.
Originally posted by normbenignMy 40 cal, with regular ammo, hitting a target that swings, will penetrate 1/8th inch plate.. my 7mm mag will blow holes through 1/8 " steel plate all day.
Do you even know what "armour peircng bullets" are?
Most centerfire rifle cartridges will penetrate soft body armour like Kevlar. Most hand gun rounds will not. Some 50 caliber rounds will penetrate military armour and almost all building walls.
Originally posted by ZahlanziThe introductory language is not conditional. It cites a justification, not the only one for the action clause.
he action clause of the text is "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
conditioned by the first. even if you were going to listen to what a bunch of 18th century slave owners wanted
you don't get to pick and choose, if you are going to keep bashing over the head with this second amendment.
it's funny how you hold this sacrosanct while breaking the others whenever you feel like it.
Originally posted by AThousandYoungYou are reemphasizing why armor piercing is meaningless. What kind of armor? Generally police Kevlar vests have a pocket where an hard insert is held of some either plastic or metal armor stronger than Kevlar, but which bullets would penetrate without Kevlar to slow them.
That's why they stopped using steel plate armor five hundred years ago.
Hunting and fishing in Alaska usually require a sensible person to carry at bare minimum a .44 magnum with 300 grain or larger bullets in case of bear encounters. Smaller "armor piercing" rounds would probably result in you ending up in a pile of bear poop.
Originally posted by Hugh GlassYour .40 will not defeat regular Kevlar but will put a hurting on the vest wearer. That 7mm mag is a monster at penetration, combining relatively small diameter, heavy bullet and high velocity.
My 40 cal, with regular ammo, hitting a target that swings, will penetrate 1/8th inch plate.. my 7mm mag will blow holes through 1/8 " steel plate all day.
The latest sniper rounds other than the Barrett .50 are slim, high velocity rounds in the 6.5mm range, very fast and flat downrange.
Originally posted by normbenignFMJ rifle ammunition is standard AP I think. Your HP pistol ammo is not.
You are reemphasizing why armor piercing is meaningless. What kind of armor? Generally police Kevlar vests have a pocket where an hard insert is held of some either plastic or metal armor stronger than Kevlar, but which bullets would penetrate without Kevlar to slow them.
Hunting and fishing in Alaska usually require a sensible person to carry at bar ...[text shortened]... Smaller "armor piercing" rounds would probably result in you ending up in a pile of bear poop.
Apparently the law says that AP ammo is for pistols, but it needs a steel core or steel jacket.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/04/robert-farago/atf-bans-importation-of-russian-made-5-45x39-armor-piercing-ammo/
The Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA), as amended, defines the term “armor piercing ammunition” as . . .
“(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.”
Bears don't wear armor so using AP rounds on them would be silly. You would want hollow points because those do extra damage to unarmored flesh which bears have a lot of. Unless you want to shoot it in the head. Then armor piercing is probably a good idea.
Originally posted by normbenignA well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
The introductory language is not conditional. It cites a justification, not the only one for the action clause.
it is the bloody only one. it starts with it. it doesn't even say "you have the right to bear arms because ..." just so people don't stop reading after the first sentence.
just because the second sentence has the verb, it doesn't make it the action clause.
what is actually important here is really the "well regulated militia". that is what the forefathers deemed necessary, and the right of the people to bear arms came as a necessary conclusion.
Originally posted by AThousandYoungLots of variables are involved. Almost all centerfire rifle cartridges will defeat multilayer Kevlar used by police. That includes FMJ and softer tipped hunting rounds. Teflon or other nylon tipped bullets more reliably defeat Kevlar. Every bullet has its own characteristics including what it will penetrate and what it will not. The only handgun round I've heard of that will defeat regular Kevlar is the FN57, a very high velocity 5.7mm round fired from both handguns and short barrelled carbines.
FMJ rifle ammunition is standard AP I think. Your HP pistol ammo is not.
The key factor in penetrating armour either natural animal or man made, is projectile velocity, combined with a secondary factor bullet weight, and a third diameter.
Originally posted by ZahlanziI know English is not your first language. A conditional statement doesn't alter or modify the clause containing the verb.
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
it is the bloody only one. it starts with it. it doesn't even say "you have the right to bear arms [b]because ..." just so people don't stop reading after the first sentence.
just because the second ...[text shortened]... thers deemed necessary, and the right of the people to bear arms came as a necessary conclusion.[/b]
The right defined in the 2nd belongs to the People, not the militia. It is a right of all the People, and doesn't require membership in a militia.
Originally posted by AThousandYoungAux contraire. The Grizzly, Brown Bear and Polar Bears have really heavy armour of flesh and bone protecting their vitals. Black bears are more soft skinned. Penetration is required but it doesn't have to be AP, just heavy bullets with enough velocity will do the trick. Hollow points are seldom used to take big game. Even soft skinned animals like whitetail deer are usually taken with soft tipped bullets with relatively high velocity to improve penetration of vitals.
Apparently the law says that AP ammo is for pistols, but it needs a steel core or steel jacket.
[quote]http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/04/robert-farago/atf-bans-importation-of-russian-made-5-45x39-armor-piercing-ammo/
The Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA), as amended, defines the term “armor piercing ammunition” as . . .
“(i) a proje ...[text shortened]... lot of. Unless you want to shoot it in the head. Then armor piercing is probably a good idea.
Originally posted by normbenignBullet shape and hardness matter too. Teflon does not help pierce armor. That's a myth.
Lots of variables are involved. Almost all centerfire rifle cartridges will defeat multilayer Kevlar used by police. That includes FMJ and softer tipped hunting rounds. Teflon or other nylon tipped bullets more reliably defeat Kevlar. Every bullet has its own characteristics including what it will penetrate and what it will not. The only handgun roun ...[text shortened]... e, is projectile velocity, combined with a secondary factor bullet weight, and a third diameter.
Originally posted by AThousandYoungTeflon is harder and slipperier than lead. Absolutely shape is an important factor. True armour piercing bullets are mostly prohibited, but many that aren't AP nominally will defeat soft body armour.
Bullet shape and hardness matter too. Teflon does not help pierce armor. That's a myth.
A 5.45mm or .223 bullet will penetrate Kevlar, but don't depend on it to kill a charging Grizzly.