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Debates Forum

  1. Standard member shavixmir
    Guppy poo
    12 Feb '10 06:34
    Capitalism has proven itself as reliable as a paedophile in a scouting camp.
    Banks have collapsed, currencies are targetted (which is worth a thread all on its own) and businesses are taken over under false pretencies, re-sold and working folks are laid off (thinking of English chocolate factories, for example).

    My initial question is: Why did we bail out those bloody banks? What was the point?
    Why didn't we just nationalize one, pump tax payers money into that, and use the nationalized bank to distribute any loans needed?

    The second question is about Greece. How the hell can they be up financial faeces creek without a paddle? Why do I have to pay to get them out? And who actually gets that money we bail them out with? I can't hardly imagine it's the Greek folk themselves.

    I'm worried about this, because if Greece is "targetted" (although I confess to not actually understanding what that means when there are no B52's involved) which country is next? And isn't it just mopping up with the tap open?

    Who the hell is responsible for all this crap? Why don't we just string him up by the balls?
  2. Standard member Seitse
    Doug Stanhope
    12 Feb '10 06:57
    Homo homini lupus

    Unbridled capitalism does not work simply due to that fact of life.

    It's so logical that a single gram of brain is sufficient to laugh at laissez-faire clowns.
  3. 12 Feb '10 07:11
    Well, they should have just started the Euro without the dodgy corrupt regimes, for starters. Still puzzles me why they let in Greece, Italy and Portugal.
  4. 12 Feb '10 07:14
    Originally posted by Seitse
    Homo homini lupus

    Unbridled capitalism does not work simply due to that fact of life.

    It's so logical that a single gram of brain is sufficient to laugh at laissez-faire clowns.
    if capitalism does not work what is the alternative?
  5. 12 Feb '10 07:21
    Originally posted by utherpendragon
    if capitalism does not work what is the alternative?
    Bridled capitalism.
  6. 12 Feb '10 07:25
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    Bridled capitalism.
    Explain further please.
  7. Standard member shavixmir
    Guppy poo
    12 Feb '10 07:27
    Originally posted by utherpendragon
    if capitalism does not work what is the alternative?
    Stick to the topic and answer my questions, please.
  8. 12 Feb '10 07:42
    Originally posted by shavixmir
    Stick to the topic and answer my questions, please.
    "Capitalism has proven itself as reliable as a paedophile in a scouting camp."-sewer rat

    I was responding to your op
  9. Standard member Seitse
    Doug Stanhope
    12 Feb '10 07:47
    Originally posted by utherpendragon
    if capitalism does not work what is the alternative?
    KN already replied to you.

    As for your request for further explanation, I am afraid
    evident concepts are, well, evident already*.

    Sorry to hear that it is not like that for you.

    * Search definition of 'bridled', e.g. www.m-w-com [suggestion]
  10. 12 Feb '10 07:59
    Originally posted by Seitse
    KN already replied to you.

    As for your request for further explanation, I am afraid
    evident concepts are, well, evident already*.

    Sorry to hear that it is not like that for you.

    * Search definition of 'bridled', e.g. www.m-w-com [suggestion]
    I googled your suggestion and nothing. I googled "bridled capitalism" and nothing worth while.
    Say what you mean. I truly do not understand that term. Enlighten me,if you will.
  11. Standard member Seitse
    Doug Stanhope
    12 Feb '10 08:25
    Originally posted by utherpendragon
    I googled your suggestion and nothing. I googled "bridled capitalism" and nothing worth while.
    Say what you mean. I truly do not understand that term. Enlighten me,if you will.
    Sorry if I didn't ask earlier but, is English your mother tongue?

    If it is then you will find very clarifying how Merriam Webster
    (www.m-w.com) defines 'bridled'.

    Hint: if you insist in pretending you do not know what bridled
    capitalism points at, then I recommend googling "bridled capitalism"
    without the quote marks on. Moreover, I am afraid that for understanding
    the idea you won't find a wiki page chewing it for you in a diagram.
    Sorry, it is sort of a, er, complex set of concepts and ideas.
  12. 12 Feb '10 08:41 / 5 edits
    Originally posted by shavixmir
    Capitalism has proven itself as reliable as a paedophile in a scouting camp.
    Banks have collapsed, currencies are targetted (which is worth a thread all on its own) and businesses are taken over under false pretencies, re-sold and working folks are laid off (thinking of English chocolate factories, for example).

    My initial question is: Why did we bail he hell is responsible for all this crap? Why don't we just string him up by the balls?
    hi the problem is my friend is that when you give your money to a bank or any other financial institution for that matter, lend it to a friend, a charity anything really, it ceases to be your money. What you have in fact become is a creditor to the aforementioned agency., that is why, on your bank statement if you have more money deposited than you have borrowed , you are in credit as a creditor, the bank is then a debtor to you. To speak of it as 'our money', or 'the tax payers' money is an unreality, for as soon as we hand it over, it ceases to be ours for its as if we have invested in that agency by lending them our dosh, the banks and governments owe us the value of that dosh but they may do as they wish with what was formerly our money on the 'promise', that they will give us it back. The principle works exactly the same for taxes, they are the property now of the government, yes we the people are owed the value of those taxes, but the government may do with them as they see fit.

    you can see how the arrangement works on the basis of trust in that certain 'promises', are obligated to be fulfilled. what happens if this 'trust', breaks down? the debtor to whom we lent our money struggles to reimburse us with the value of that money? what happens if the value of our money cannot be realised because it transference to another type of commodity devalues it? what happens if the friend we have lent our money to is a little dubious and is perhaps even corrupt? what happens to that bond of trust? what if he gets busted by the Federalis and put in jail, when will we see the value of our dosh?

    This of course only partly answers your question, the other concerns about why through nothing more than utter greed the businesses which we gave our money to failed and why they were propped up, why the economy in Greece should be in such a volatile state i dont know, but i really hope that you get an answer - regards Robbie.
  13. Standard member Seitse
    Doug Stanhope
    12 Feb '10 08:57
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    hi the problem is my friend is that when you give your money to a bank or any other financial institution for that matter, lend it to a friend, a charity anything really, it ceases to be your money. What you have in fact become is a creditor to the aforementioned agency, that is why, on your bank statement if you have more money deposited than you have borrowed , you are in credit as a creditor, the bank is then a debtor to you.
    Very interesting way to approach it, indeed. This is why corporate
    governance is, in my opinion, such an important issue: for whom are
    the companies working for and towards which stakeholders (and to
    what extent) are they accountable for. The typical dichotomy is the
    shareholder vs. stakeholder approach. And even within the stakeholder
    approach there is the debate of the economic stakeholders (i.e. creditors
    and perhaps consumers and workers) vs. the non-economic stakeholders
    (community and the environment). If your point of view expressed above
    would take hold then there would be a chance to sort of 'upgrading' the
    community to the level of creditor. Even more interesting would be, then,
    how to (theoretically at least) 'upgrade' the community into the shareholder
    level without actually handing share certificates per se to the community at
    large. Of course, to debate that would be easier if focusing on banks, not
    necessarily companies in general. A good start would be to differentiate the
    key societal role played by banks.
  14. Standard member spruce112358
    Democracy Advocate
    12 Feb '10 09:17
    Originally posted by shavixmir
    Capitalism has proven itself as reliable as a paedophile in a scouting camp.
    Banks have collapsed, currencies are targetted (which is worth a thread all on its own) and businesses are taken over under false pretencies, re-sold and working folks are laid off (thinking of English chocolate factories, for example).

    My initial question is: Why did we bail ...[text shortened]... he hell is responsible for all this crap? Why don't we just string him up by the balls?
    Why are you blaming the collapse of Greece on capitalism? Greece is collapsing because of a classic socialist spending binge -- in which every government worker gets tens of thousands of euros of borrowed money. Nothing bad happens immediately, and approval ratings go up. So the benefits get expanded to other classes -- more is borrowed -- and approval ratings go up again. So the unfunded spending programs get massively expanded -- more borrowing. Approval ratings reach the highest level ever!

    Whups! Now the government has borrowed so much -- it can't pay it back!

    Hmmm. Devalue the currency? Classically, that's what would be done. Leave the creditors holding worthless paper.

    Whups! We CAN'T! We don't "own" the currency! Crap!

    Well, let's get a loan from Germany...WHAT!?! You don't want to give us money so that Greek bus drivers can buy second and third country homes and sleek BMWs?

    Outrageous! Counterrevolutionary!
  15. 12 Feb '10 09:21 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by spruce112358
    Why are you blaming the collapse of Greece on capitalism? Greece is collapsing because of a classic socialist spending binge -- in which every government worker gets tens of thousands of euros of borrowed money. Nothing bad happens immediately, and approval ratings go up. So the benefits get expanded to other classes -- more is borrowed -- and approval buy second and third country homes and sleek BMWs?

    Outrageous! Counterrevolutionary!
    ummm i thought that Greece had a conservative government, not a socialist one? there are subtle differences you know!