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  1. Standard membervivify
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    16 Sep '20 16:041 edit
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/13/belarus-100000-join-rally-against-lukashenko-on-eve-of-putin-showdown

    100 thousand people protested against the Belarusian president, Lukashenko, who has a 26 year history of dictatorial behavior. This includes using deadly force to quell protesters. In the most recent election, a few of his political opponents have been jailed, and one his opponents has fled the country fearing she will also be imprisoned.

    The backlash has gotten so bad, Lukashenko enlisted the help of Putin (a dictator himself), who Lukashenko and Belarus have resisted for years, due to Putin wanting to merge Belarus into Russia.

    The obvious comparisons to the U.S. aside, you'd think the UN, NATO or the EU would have a system in place to dispose of dictators. Gaddafi was removed, but part of the reason (out of many) was due to terrorist actions abroad...yes, more importantly was also Libya's value to the west and their oil fields. But the point is the a dictator was removed through the efforts of NATO and the UN.

    So what should be done about dictators like Lukashenko? Sanctions alone won't work, especially with Russia having a seat on the UN Security Council; but what about in general? Should the UN have a system in place to dispose of dictators?

    Obviously, criteria defining dictatorial rule will have to be implemented. But even then, having a system to remove dictators can and will be used for political reasons rather than ethical ones. It's unavoidable, especially given the power that the US, China, Russia and UK have in the UN.

    Still...we've seen that sanctions and even embargoes don't work in removing dictators. Rarely do uprisings from within the country succeed; if they do, it's usually after decades of dictatorial rule.

    Thoughts?
  2. Standard memberAThousandYoung
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    16 Sep '20 16:21
    @vivify said
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/13/belarus-100000-join-rally-against-lukashenko-on-eve-of-putin-showdown

    100 thousand people protested against the Belarusian president, Lukashenko, who has a 26 year history of dictatorial behavior. This includes using deadly force to quell protesters. In the most recent election, a few of his political opponents have been jaile ...[text shortened]... thin the country succeed; if they do, it's usually after decades of dictatorial rule.

    Thoughts?
    Russia likes dictators and is too powerful to ignore.
  3. Standard memberDeepThought
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    16 Sep '20 18:04
    @vivify said
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/13/belarus-100000-join-rally-against-lukashenko-on-eve-of-putin-showdown

    100 thousand people protested against the Belarusian president, Lukashenko, who has a 26 year history of dictatorial behavior. This includes using deadly force to quell protesters. In the most recent election, a few of his political opponents have been jaile ...[text shortened]... thin the country succeed; if they do, it's usually after decades of dictatorial rule.

    Thoughts?
    How they are governed is a matter for the Belarussians. Dictatorships do not necessarily outlast the dictator, for example Spain after Franco. The international community's concern should be that they remain contained, but that's the same for democracies.

    It's not clear that the toppling of Gadaffi has produced a better outcome than waiting for him to die of more-or-less natural causes and letting them move to democracy themselves.

    The UN can only really be involved if there's a civil war and to prevent and try War Crimes. Russia would want to lead any international effort, possibly with an eye to annexation and so I doubt that the West could do much on practical grounds whatever standards of government we might wish were enforcable by the United Nations.
  4. SubscriberEarl of Trumps
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    16 Sep '20 19:331 edit
    Lukashenko SUCKS and runs a banana republic. He cheats in elections, throws
    opposition members into prison or out of the country.

    This guy is the mirror image of Maduro of Venezuela - and likely other world despots, too.
  5. Standard membervivify
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    16 Sep '20 19:39
    @deepthought said
    It's not clear that the toppling of Gadaffi has produced a better outcome than waiting for him to die of more-or-less natural causes and letting them move to democracy themselves.
    That's because the West gave no thought what to do after toppling Gadaffi. If the UN had a thought-out system for removing dictators, the resulting mess wouldn't have happened.
  6. Standard memberAThousandYoung
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    16 Sep '20 20:48
    @vivify said
    That's because the West gave no thought what to do after toppling Gadaffi. If the UN had a thought-out system for removing dictators, the resulting mess wouldn't have happened.
    The UN had a though out system that said don't remove the dictator actually. The USA wasn't and isn't too concerned with what the UN has to say.
  7. Subscribersonhouse
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    16 Sep '20 21:35
    @AThousandYoung
    What do we do with our own would be dictator?
  8. Subscriberno1marauder
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    16 Sep '20 22:40
    @vivify said
    That's because the West gave no thought what to do after toppling Gadaffi. If the UN had a thought-out system for removing dictators, the resulting mess wouldn't have happened.
    UN Charter Article 2 Section 7:

    "Nothing contained in the present Charter shall authorize the United Nations to intervene in matters which are essentially within the domestic jurisdiction of any state or shall require the Members to submit such matters to settlement under the present Charter; but this principle shall not prejudice the application of enforcement measures under Chapter Vll."

    https://www.un.org/en/sections/un-charter/un-charter-full-text/

    The UN has no "thought-out system for removing dictators" because the treaty authorizing its existence and binding on its members explicitly bars such interference in the domestic affairs of a State.
  9. Standard membervivify
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    16 Sep '20 22:55
    @no1marauder said
    UN Charter Article 2 Section 7:

    "Nothing contained in the present Charter shall authorize the United Nations to intervene in matters which are essentially within the domestic jurisdiction of any state or shall require the Members to submit such matters to settlement under the present Charter; but this principle shall not prejudice the application of enforcement ...[text shortened]... nce and binding on its members explicitly bars such interference in the domestic affairs of a State.
    Notice I said "the West" and *not* "the UN", since Gaddafi was removed through a US-Led NATO coalition. Gaddafi garnered the ire of the western world, which is why he was removed; that, and Libya was a valuable asset to the West. Therefore, I used "west" rather than "UN".
  10. Standard membervivify
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    16 Sep '20 22:592 edits
    @athousandyoung said
    The UN had a though out system that said don't remove the dictator actually. The USA wasn't and isn't too concerned with what the UN has to say.
    Obama had the backing of the UN Security Council, and they voted to approve air strikes. Yes, they're not *quite* the same as the UN, but still.

    Don't get me wrong: that in NO WAY justifies Obama's actions. But there should still be some sort of internationally agreed upon measure for removing dictators.

    But then again, as I mentioned before, such power would inevitably be abused for political gain.
  11. S. Korea
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    16 Sep '20 23:03
    @vivify said
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/13/belarus-100000-join-rally-against-lukashenko-on-eve-of-putin-showdown

    100 thousand people protested against the Belarusian president, Lukashenko, who has a 26 year history of dictatorial behavior. This includes using deadly force to quell protesters. In the most recent election, a few of his political opponents have been jaile ...[text shortened]... thin the country succeed; if they do, it's usually after decades of dictatorial rule.

    Thoughts?
    Nothing should be done about them.

    Any actions you guys contemplate tend to always result in greater suffering, especially when the dictator is dislodged through war.

    As it stands, Western nations are also ruled by oligarchs. What makes this seem different is only that the levels of prosperity are so high that transfers of power are seamless and that the oligarchs are so secure that they can afford giving liberties to the people, but this is something that we will see fade.

    Have no faith in temporal powers.
  12. Standard membervivify
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    16 Sep '20 23:09
    @philokalia said
    Nothing should be done about them.

    Any actions you guys contemplate tend to always result in greater suffering, especially when the dictator is dislodged through war.

    As it stands, Western nations are also ruled by oligarchs. What makes this seem different is only that the levels of prosperity are so high that transfers of power are seamless and that the oligarchs a ...[text shortened]... ies to the people, but this is something that we will see fade.

    Have no faith in temporal powers.
    Very good point.
  13. Standard memberAThousandYoung
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    17 Sep '20 00:35
    @vivify said
    Obama had the backing of the UN Security Council, and they voted to approve air strikes. Yes, they're not *quite* the same as the UN, but still.

    Don't get me wrong: that in NO WAY justifies Obama's actions. But there should still be some sort of internationally agreed upon measure for removing dictators.

    But then again, as I mentioned before, such power would inevitably be abused for political gain.
    Oh well then there we go. UN Security Council authorization of force.
  14. Standard memberAThousandYoung
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    17 Sep '20 00:36
    @sonhouse said
    @AThousandYoung
    What do we do with our own would be dictator?
    Vote him out and lock him up!
  15. Zugzwang
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    17 Sep '20 09:511 edit
    @vivify said
    Notice I said "the West" and *not* "the UN", since Gaddafi was removed through a US-Led NATO coalition. Gaddafi garnered the ire of the western world, which is why he was removed; that, and Libya was a valuable asset to the West. Therefore, I used "west" rather than "UN".
    Vivify replied to No1Marauder.

    Gaddafi was forcibly overthrown (and killed) because he was weak,
    not because he was a particularly atrocious dictator.
    Gaddafi was not as terrible as some dictators supported by the USA.

    When does Vivify believe that NATO will overthrow President Erdogan
    of Turkey, a major member of NATO?

    Saudi Arabia is ruled by an apparent absolutist monarchy.
    When does Vivify believe that the USA will invade Saudi Arabia?
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