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@kevcvs57 saidLord' don't let's get started on 'the Indian's land!' A century or two before that, I think the Brits stole some land from somebody. Survival of the fittest is one way to look at it, but progress and inventions, such as that, to better our lives, is another way to look at it. I just can't see Suzianne sitting a saddle in the west if Indians still owned all that land, slaying buffalo (with spears....).
Yes but most of them aren’t there anymore morality is about how actions impact on actual people not how they might have impacted on people who no longer exist in the kind numbers they may have had the immoral act not taken place.
I wouldn’t advise taking the morality meter out of the argument it could lead to us creating dystopia a lot quicker than we otherwise might.
But ...[text shortened]... om communist rule by the CCP and everyone who chooses to has the right to assist them in that fight.
I just don't sign on the the 'immorality' of the growth that came with all that.
@averagejoe1 saidAn immoral act is an immoral act joe, unless you are declaring yourself to be a utilitarian, but I doubt you are.
Lord' don't let's get started on 'the Indian's land!' A century or two before that, I think the Brits stole some land from somebody. Survival of the fittest is one way to look at it, but progress and inventions, such as that, to better our lives, is another way to look at it. I just can't see Suzianne sitting a saddle in the west if Indians still owned all that land, ...[text shortened]... pears....).
I just don't sign on the the 'immorality' of the growth that came with all that.
@kevcvs57 saidNo one is saying Taiwan doesn't have the right to fight for sovereignty; it was a nation before China came along.
I just do not accept the validity of that argument. The people of Taiwan have every right to fight for their freedom from communist rule by the CCP and everyone who chooses to has the right to assist them in that fight.
You seem unaware that jumping into war, especially between superpowers, only brings more death and destruction. Look at Yemen and what a tragic human rights disaster that became because of external forces joining the fight.
A fight between superpowers will be incomparably worse. Taiwan will not be preserved, it will be destroyed in the fight.
Furthermore, as much as you don't want to admit it, this isn't about "morality", this about U.S. interests. Taiwan is a valuable trading partner as well as a strategic military outpost; and most importantly, they are a tool to as a proxy war against China.
This isn't about sticking up for the little guy; otherwise, the U.S. wouldn't have abandoned the Kurds to be slaughtered so many times. Every time the Kurds serve their purpose, like in 2019, the U.S. leaves them to die. America is no hero.
@no1marauder saidOBVIOUSLY the Kuomintang are the legitimate leaders of China and we are only offering to protect them from Communist rebels.
It means that US policy is that Taiwan is part of China, but we'll go to war with China if they try to enforce that.
Makes sense.
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@vivify saidTaiwan wasn’t “a nation before China came along”.
No one is saying Taiwan doesn't have the right to fight for sovereignty; it was a nation before China came along.
You seem unaware that jumping into war, especially between superpowers, only brings more death and destruction. Look at Yemen and what a tragic human rights disaster that became because of external forces joining the fight.
A fight between superpowers wil ...[text shortened]... time the Kurds serve their purpose, like in 2019, the U.S. leaves them to die. America is no hero.
It’s more like if the Confederacy won the Civil War and the US government set up an emergency base in Hawaii…
And then we wait a hundred years and Hawaii is understood to be part of the USA, the Confederates control the mainland 49 States but the old US government is still entrenched in Hawaii…
@vivify saidBut I’m not advocating jumping into war I’m saying the best war to avoid a war between China and the US is for both sides to be honest about their stance.
No one is saying Taiwan doesn't have the right to fight for sovereignty; it was a nation before China came along.
You seem unaware that jumping into war, especially between superpowers, only brings more death and destruction. Look at Yemen and what a tragic human rights disaster that became because of external forces joining the fight.
A fight between superpowers wil ...[text shortened]... time the Kurds serve their purpose, like in 2019, the U.S. leaves them to die. America is no hero.
You are claiming that the US standing off is a way of avoiding war without any evidence to support the theory. The best way to avoid this war is for Taiwan and China to come to some sort of federal arrangement which incorporates an actual “One Country Two Systems” solutions but as I say it cannot be the same one that Hong Kong had this one has to be in place until Taiwan democratically decides otherwise.
You seem to be assuming that Taiwan will not fight without US or western support. If China invades Taiwan there will be a war wether you or I think it’s a bad idea or not.
Taiwan is the epicentre of the global microchip industry both China and the west depend on Taiwan for their high end tec components. So everyone has a dog in this potential fight
@athousandyoung saidYou use for your example a nation that was annexed by the U.S. You may want to rethink that one.
Taiwan wasn’t “a nation before China came along”.
It’s more like if the Confederacy won the Civil War and the US government set up an emergency base in Hawaii…
And then we wait a hundred years and Hawaii is understood to be part of the USA, the Confederates control the mainland 49 States but the old US government is still entrenched in Hawaii…
Taiwan was indeed a nation before China, and was even recognized as such for a few decades by the U.N., until the 70s.
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@vivify saidThe Kwomontang are not indigenous Taiwanese they came from China and conquered the island same as USA.
You use for your example a nation that was annexed by the U.S. You may want to rethink that one.
Taiwan was indeed a nation before China, and was even recognized as such for a few decades by the U.N., until the 70s.
The UN recognized Taiwan as representing all of China (Republic of China) not as an independent island.
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@athousandyoung saidI know. I'm not sure what point you're making here.
The Kwomontang are not indigenous Taiwanese they came from China and conquered the island same as USA.
The UN recognized Taiwan as representing all of China (Republic of China) not as an independent island.
Okay, thanks for clearing that up.
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@vivify saidMaybe I misunderstood you. Is your point that Hawaii was not part of the USA during the Civil War? If so you are correct. I just couldn’t think of a good island to use as an example. Long Island maybe?
I know. I'm not sure what point you're making here.
The UN recognized Taiwan as representing all of China (Republic of China) not as an independent island.
Okay, thanks for clearing that up.
How defensible is Long Island as a fortress against the mainland? No1? What do you think?
@athousandyoung saidI was saying that America opposing China's forces in Taiwan is akin to some foreign country defending Hawaii from the U.S.
Is your point that Hawaii was not part of the USA during the Civil War?
@athousandyoung saidThis was something I didn't know. Thanks for posting this.
Apparently George Washington fought the Brits on Long Island but that’s not a land power so different dynamic
wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Long_Island