In the US, it is a bit different in for instance Europe, we see a political and philosophical/religious division in the population that is remarkable in my opinion. Those who oppose abortion, euthanasia and assisted suicide usually are advocates of the death penalty and those who are advocates of abortion, euthanasia and asssisted suicide usually oppose the death penalty. The next article adresses that division. In particular it adresses the Catholics, but I guess all Christians could read this. Secular people who are seriously interested in these issues are also invited.
Church Teaches that All Life is Valuable
Archbishop Harry J. Flynn, Archbishop of St. Paul and Minneapolis
January 4, 1996
In this culture in which death is so prevalent and so often a deliberate choice and a desperate attempt to solve a human problem, it is easy to promote the death penalty as the best way to counteract violence and get tough on crime.
However, I am compelled to raise a voice of reasoned dissent. I am convinced that there is a more responsible way to address the growing incidence of murders and other acts of violence in our midst.
So is our Holy Father, Pope John Paul II, who in his latest encyclical on life stated the following:
The nature and extent of the punishment...ought not go to the extreme of executing the offender except in cases of absolute necessity: in other words, when it would not be possible otherwise to defend society. Today, however, as a result of steady improvements in the organization of the penal system, such cases are very rare if not practically nonexistent.
Our Catholic moral teaching has always recognized the responsibility of government to protect citizens from persons who might be dangerous and harmful to others. This teaching has allowed the death penalty for particularly heinous crimes when the criminal is a continued threat to others.
However, in our culture at this present time, we have the possibility of incarcerating someone who is harmful for the rest of his/her life. We do not need to use the death penalty.
Our problem is this: Capital punishment plunges us further into the culture of death. I am convinced that we must choose consistently for life. This means foregoing a right to impose the death penalty in order to reverse that terrible culture of violence and death. I would stand for a deliberate and courageous decision to break down the terrible cycle of violence. We must choose life.
I oppose the death penalty in our present society because I believe in the sacredness and the dignity of every human life, even the lives of those who have committed terrible crimes.
I want to restrict any and all ways in which our contemporary culture proposes death as a solution to a problem.
I want to release energy and creativity in the pursuit of ways to reduce crime, protect the innocent, punish the criminal, work for change in offenders and yet consistently stand for the respect for life even of those who threaten the lives of others with disdain.
I do not believe that one can be pro-life and at the same time support the death penalty. All life needs to be upheld as sacred and gifted by God, from life in the womb to the life of a convicted criminal. We must affirm all life. The more I am convinced that the convicted killer is made in the image and likeness of God, the more I will be concerned for the unborn.
We are concerned because we sense in our society a growing acceptance of revenge as a principle of justice. We who claim to be followers of Jesus need to search out the roots and reasons for our current attitudes about punishment for offenders. We must ask ourselves whether or not the negative power of vengeance has found a home in our hearts rather than the life-giving Gospel of Jesus Christ.
The very violence that frightens us so much can make us proponents of violence. If we have been shaped and formed by our fears and we expect serenity from the existence of the death penalty, we are sadly mistaken. The death penalty does not reduce crime. As a deterrent to crime, the death penalty is an abysmal failure.
We, in the United States today, have an alternative to the death penalty. It is long-term of life imprisonment without parole. This approach has been successfully incorporated in some Western industrialized countries.
During World Youth Day, our Holy Father challenged the young people with these words: Do not be ashamed of the Gospel. Be proud of the Gospel. The Gospel kingdom of peace and justice will be build on a foundation of love that is capable of compassion and mercy.
We must believe in the all-powerful redemptive love of God which can change hearts, convert people, and renew all things. We must be a people committed to hope for those who seem to be hopeless. We must be a people who see the value of a human life that others might think to be worthless.
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Any thoughts on this peculiar division between the groups I described in my introduction to the above article ?
To be more clear on the issue of this thread: It is about this peculiar division.
Originally posted by ivanhoeThere is nothing peculiar about the division at least in my mind. Those who want to make it a crime to have an abortion (as it was in many states prior to Roe v. Wade with prison terms of up to 10 years) are asserting an expansion of the power of the State into a basic decision of human life i.e. procreation. Those who believe in the death penalty are asserting the right of the State to have ultimate power over your life itself. Approaching it from a libertarian point of view, both are inappropriate exercises of State power and should be opposed.
In the US, it is a bit different in for instance Europe, we see a political and philosophical/religious division in the population that is remarkable in my opinion. Those who oppose abortion, euthanasia and assisted suicide usually are ...[text shortened]... the issue of this thread: It is about this peculiar division.
Originally posted by no1marauderI fall into the okay with capital punishment, and reject abortion
There is nothing peculiar about the division at least in my mind. Those who want to make it a crime to have an abortion (as it was in many states prior to Roe v. Wade with prison terms of up to 10 years) are asserting an expans ...[text shortened]... are inappropriate exercises of State power and should be opposed.
and so on.
It is a matter of authority in my opinion, as you point out the state
wants to end a life in capital punishment, and in my opinion we allow
a life to be ended in an abortion at the whim of a woman's choice
with or without a great deal of thought on the matter.
With the state, it boils down to laws being broken. The debate can
move to if the laws are what we call just or not, but that is a different
subject. If the punishment is death for a crime, and the crime is
committed, then after due process they are found guilty, then comes
the punishment. Where with abortion, a life is ended just because,
and there isn't any guilt, no crime committed by the one about to die
outside of their mother not wanting them, for whatever reason she
has or says she has.
I believe we are not our own but belong to God, who has given us
our lives and in whose created universe we have our being. So we
cannot assume we can simply take it upon ourselves to lay value
upon another's life, and say this one should live that one should
die, this one it is worth some effort, that one will simply be a
bother get rid of it.
Without laws being broken there isn't a justification for such things.
Taking one's own life because of suffering, or allowing a love one to
pass on without lifesupport is the more complicated issue of the group
you brought up in my opinion. How bad is bad when making that
choice? If it is just depression, that could cause the desire, but that
can and does pass with time, so is it justified? Do we know the
outcome of all sickness and so on for the other? Tough choices, to be
sure.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayYour post is contradictory in my view.
I fall into the okay with capital punishment, and reject abortion
and so on.
It is a matter of authority in my opinion, as you point out the state
wants to end a life in capital punishment, and in my opinion we allow
a life to be ended in an abortion at the whim of a woman's choice
with or without a great deal of thought on the matter.
With the s ...[text shortened]... we know the
outcome of all sickness and so on for the other? Tough choices, to be
sure.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayIt is always interesting to me that the vast majority of conservatives favor the death penalty. If "government is the problem, not the solution" -Ronald Reagan, why do you want that government to have the power of death over you? Do you think that the criminal justice system is administered any better than the Post Office or Department of Education? Why would you want an entity that you have so much distrust in (the government) to have such ultimate power?
I fall into the okay with capital punishment, and reject abortion
and so on.
It is a matter of authority in my opinion, as you point out the state
wants to end a life in capital punishment, and in my opinion we allow
a life to be ended in an abortion at the whim of a woman's choice
with or without a great deal of thought on the matter.
With the s ...[text shortened]... we know the
outcome of all sickness and so on for the other? Tough choices, to be
sure.
Kelly
Originally posted by no1marauderYou don't seem to mind giving that power to 12+/- year old girls and
It is always interesting to me that the vast majority of conservatives favor the death penalty. If "government is the problem, not the solution" -Ronald Reagan, why do you want that government to have the power of death over you? Do you think that the criminal justice system is administered any better than the Post Office or Department of Educ ...[text shortened]... want an entity that you have so much distrust in (the government) to have such ultimate power?
older, but it bothers you that the laws our elected officials make can
bring upon someone death for a crime they do out of their own
desires and lusts. That to me seems odd!
Kelly
Originally posted by TovMauzerGod set us up to govern ourselves within boundaries, laws are part of
You state that we belong to God who gave us our lives - how capital panishment is justified then? God gave, God takes.
the universe and we have some say in that. As long as they are
applied even handly across the board, and just I don't have an issue
with them. When we start looking at what is a just law, that is a
different subject.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayThat's not really an answer, KellyJay, just a rant.
You don't seem to mind giving that power to 12+/- year old girls and
older, but it bothers you that the laws our elected officials make can
bring upon someone death for a crime they do out of their own
desires and lusts. That to me seems odd!
Kelly
Originally posted by no1marauderI beg to differ, I believe that the life within the woman is just that
That's not really an answer, KellyJay, just a rant.
a human life. I believe that life has done nothing wrong to deserve
death. The crime is nothing but the whim of the mother, which is
by far worse than what your saying about the state. The state in
capital punishment is not the state simply grabing people it does not
like and kill them because it wants to for whatever reason sounds
good at the time. There are laws in place that must bring that into
play, there is due process. I do not see rant in this!
Kelly
mhmmmmm....
Let's see: A woman wants to kill herself. She can. Anything within her is going to die as well. HER CHOICE!!!
Now, you can let her go crawling to the back alleys in hicktown to be operated on by 3rd generation inbred hillbillies using knitting needles and bourbon....OR....you can have professionals minimalising the chances of the woman being hurt any further.
Abortion is a woman's choice. You can shout "God" all you want, but if you're so opposed to death go and stand outside a cemetry and stop those bodies a comin'.
Euthenasia is....A CHOICE!!! Well. As I've probably mentioned, I'm not gonna stop anyone from killing themselves (unless it's gonna be another damned funeral during one of my holidays).
The death penalty is...NO CHOICE! The state decides for you. OR EVEN WORSE....YOUR PEERS!!!
Yeah. That's all I'd need to cheer me up, looking up from the 'guilty as hell' chair and seeing the politically correct lobby, the pro-life lobby and the christian lobby all sat there being my peers....
"Let the party begin."
Besides...there is no 100% guilt. No, stop your internal bickering, there's not. There's always a chance that you've got the wrong person.
Now, you can lock 'm up and realise this 25 years down the line and let them go with a wee bit of compensation for their troubles (which incidently has 25 years worth of 'dinners' deducted from it in Britain...) or you can kill them and dig them up after 25 years and say: "We're sorry. But the pro-life lobby is just waitin' to reanimate you!"
It's just so clear. I really can't believe there's an argument here.
Originally posted by shavixmirSince you seem to see only your side of the discussion, small wonder
mhmmmmm....
Let's see: A woman wants to kill herself. She can. Anything within her is going to die as well. HER CHOICE!!!
Now, you can let her go crawling to the back alleys in hicktown to be operated on by 3rd generation inbred hill ...[text shortened]... ust so clear. I really can't believe there's an argument here.
why you cannot believe there is an argument here!
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayNo, it's a rant, because you did not answer my question, which I'll rephrase to make it even more clear: If conservatives believe in limited government, why do they want to give it the ultimate power? If conservatives believe that public entities are less efficient than private ones, why do they want an inefficient entity (the government) having the power to make such an ultimate and irreversible decision?
I beg to differ, I believe that the life within the woman is just that
a human life. I believe that life has done nothing wrong to deserve
death. The crime is nothing but the whim of the mother, which is
by far worse than what your saying about the state. The state in
capital punishment is not the state simply grabing people it does not
like and kill t ...[text shortened]... place that must bring that into
play, there is due process. I do not see rant in this!
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJay1) Laws were not created by God.
God set us up to govern ourselves within boundaries, laws are part of
the universe and we have some say in that. As long as they are
applied even handly across the board, and just I don't have an issue
with them. When we start looking at what is a just law, that is a
different subject.
Kelly
2) Courts are not presided by God.
3) Governments are not elected by God.
You have your views - that's fine. But be consistent.