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  1. 20 Nov '17 02:39
    In another thread, "An Iconic Celebration of Sexual Assault?", some men
    apparently assert (vehemently) that a great occasion of public celebration
    obliges women not to object to or resist unsolicited male sexual advances
    or aggression when women normally would object or attempt to resist.

    Like feminist theorists, I would submit that there's a continuum of sexual
    aggression, which ranges from sexist stereotyping to sexual harassment
    to sexual assault to rape or murder.

    Given that the other thread's concerned with an incident nearer the less
    threatening part of that continuum, I have created this thread in order to
    focus upon a more threatening part of it.

    I am largely writing about rape in wartime and how men attempt to justify it.
    It's long been held that conquered women are among 'the spoils of war',
    and one reward that victorious warriors covet is the joy of raping them.

    From the thread "An Iconic Celebration of Sexual Assault?"
    "Is this something that you would argue in a trial? a rape is "just a few seconds of inconvenience"
    and if it happens during a celebration where people are happy it isn't a big deal?"
    --Zahlanzi (to No1Marauder)

    No1Marauder may have an attitude similar to Stalin's.

    When Milovan Djilas complained that Stalin that Soviet soldiers had raped hundreds of women
    during their brief occupation of a small part of 'liberated' Yugoslavia, Stalin made light of it.

    "Later investigations by Yugoslav authorities, based upon complaints by
    individual citizens, documented 121 cases of rape, all but 10 of which
    involved *rape and murder*...."hardly insignificant if it is borne in mind
    that the Red Army crossed only the northeastern corner of Yugoslavia. "
    The Yugoslav protests got nowhere with Stalin, who took umbrage at Djilas's interference."
    --Norman Naimark (_The Russians in Germany_)

    "Can't he understand it if a soldier who has crossed thousands of kilometers
    through blood and fire has fun [rape] with a woman or takes some trifle?"
    --Stalin

    "Stalin also kissed Djilas's wife and joked...'that he made this loving gesture
    at the risk of being charged with rape.'"
    --Norman Naimark

    Stain obviously condoned his soldiers raping women, both 'enemy' and allied.

    In fact, as part of 'celebrating' victory in Europe in the Second World War, many Allied
    (not only Soviet) soldiers raped women (mostly German, but also many others, including Jews).
    And some of these men rationalized their rapes by telling their victims, in effect:
    "Woman, why are you acting so upset? The war's over at last; you should be celebrating!
    What I demand from you is so little, it may take only a few minutes of your time and it
    would bring me so much joy. It's been so long since I enjoyed being inside a woman.
    And now you are here and looking so attractive and desirable, my dear girl!
    After all the hard fighting, my having you's only a small part of the reward that I deserve.
    So let me have your skirt up and legs apart now! And just relax and enjoy yourself."
  2. Subscriber Suzianne
    Misfit Queen
    20 Nov '17 02:52
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    In another thread, "An Iconic Celebration of Sexual Assault?", some men
    apparently assert (vehemently) that a great occasion of public celebration
    obliges women not to object to or resist unsolicited male sexual advances
    or aggression when women normally would object or attempt to resist.

    Like feminist theorists, I would submit that there's a contin ...[text shortened]... deserve.
    So let me have your skirt up and legs apart now! And just relax and enjoy yourself."
    Unlike the 'other' thread, this seems to be a much larger issue well worth talking about.

    But at the risk of being judged and berated for my opinion, I think it's probably 'a bridge too far' to imply that those stating their opinions in that 'other' thread would have a similar opinion of the issues in this thread. I can even see how, on the surface, a similarity might be implied to further an agenda, but such assumptions simply may or may not be true. I will hold my judgement of others' opinions at least until I hear them, especially given the difference between the topics, a difference I see as mainly a difference of degree and intent.
  3. 20 Nov '17 03:14 / 1 edit
    Now let's consider some cases of 'celebratory rape' (for lack of a better term).
    Marie Jalowicz (born in 1922) was a young German Jewish woman who had survived the
    Nazis by hiding in Berlin, with the vital aid of her (mostly Communist) anti-Nazi friends.
    In April 1945, she was overjoyed when Berlin fell to RKKA (Soviet Army), Hitler died, and she
    was liberated from the Nazis. But her delight soon ran into realizing what it would cost her.

    "Hordes of Russian troops ... demanded the rights due the conquerors: the women of the conquered."
    --Cornelius Ryan (_The Last Battle_)

    All around Berlin, Soviet soldiers were tracking down and raping women and girls (not always
    German), sometimes (in an estimated 10% of cases) murdering them after the rapes.
    When the first 'liberating' Soviet soldier appeared before her, Marie attempted to tell him
    that she's a Jew who was grateful (but not quite *that* grateful) to be liberated by him.
    She described him as 'friendly'. He had not been intimate with any woman for a long time,
    and so he lusted to enjoy going inside the pretty Fraulein (Marie) that he had just 'liberated'.
    It made no difference to him that she's a Jewess. 'Frau ist Frau!' was the soldiers' saying.
    'A woman is a woman', and as long as she had the right female parts, she was fit for what
    he desired to do to her. In motions as much as words, he demanded sexual intercourse.
    Marie was helpless. Realizing that she could not talk her way out of it. she decided that it
    would be safer not to resist and she submitted to sexual intercourse with the 'sex-starved' man.
    He enjoyed raping her throughout the night. She could overhear the screams of other
    women and girls (including a friend) who were being raped in buildings around her.
    To the soldiers, raping women and girls was just a natural way for them to celebrate victory.

    The morning after, the (no longer 'sex-starved' ) soldier was well-satisfied with both himself and Marie.
    Then he did a remarkable favor for her. He wrote (in Russian) a note that went like this:
    "This young German woman is the fiancee of a Soviet soldier [giving his name and rank].
    And so she must be under my protection and that of all other members of our heroic army.
    So, comrades, please leave her alone. Berlin's full of available women now, and I am sure
    that you can get what you desire from another woman who's not far away. Good luck!"
    Then he taught her what to say in Russian to the next soldiers who wanted to rape her.
    It worked. Whenever Marie said the magic formula and showed the note, her lusting
    would-be rapists would turn away, though with regret, and find another woman to rape.

    On the whole, Marie said that she did not feel deeply hurt by being raped for only one night.
    She regarded herself as more fortunate than many, if not most, other women in Berlin.
    Her rapist was a comparatively non-violent man, who had not attempted to beat her up.
    Marie never saw him again and did not know if he went on to rape other women.
    As far she could tell, this soldier believed that he did nothing wrong in raping her.
    He apparently sincerely believed that he was not 'degrading or abusing' her by rape.

    On the other hand, her anti-Nazi (non-Jewish) German friend who also was raped was
    much more traumatized. She was impregnated by rape and would give birth in early 1946.
    Marie Jalowicz rejected Zionist suggestions that she emigrate to Palestine and, continuing
    to embrace a German cultural identity, preferred to stay in (East) Berlin for the rest of her life.

    So, given that by her later own admission, Marie Jalowicz, did not feel very traumatized
    by being raped, does that make it acceptable for the 'celebrating' soldier to rape her?
  4. 20 Nov '17 03:16
    Originally posted by @suzianne
    Unlike the 'other' thread, this seems to be a much larger issue well worth talking about.

    But at the risk of being judged and berated for my opinion, I think it's probably 'a bridge too far' to imply that those stating their opinions in that 'other' thread would have a similar opinion of the issues in this thread. I can even see how, on the surface, a ...[text shortened]... e difference between the topics, a difference I see as mainly a difference of degree and intent.
    "But at the risk of being judged and berated for my opinion ..."
    --Suzianne

    Who's going to do that?

    I mentioned the other thread as a segue, helping to explain the creation of this thread.
    I have no objection to writers expressing opinions in this thread that may differ from theirs in others.
  5. 20 Nov '17 03:36
    Now for another case:
    "Ravensbrück ... was a German concentration camp exclusively for women from 1939-1945."
    --Wikipedia

    RKKA (Soviet Army) liberated this concentration camp. Among the survivors were three young Frenchwomen.
    These women were overjoyed to have survived, but the next few weeks brought another kind of ordeal.
    To put it bluntly, these Frenchwomen were raped many times (the soldiers would queue up
    to take their turns) every night for the next few weeks.

    The Soviet soldiers knew that these women were French, not German, and so they liked
    to say that they gave special favourable treatment to the Frenchwomen. The soldiers
    apparently sincerely believed that they were not 'degrading or abusing' these women.

    A soldier's typical attitude and approach seemed to be like this:
    "I am a soldier who's been through much hard fighting, seen many comrades killed, and am lucky to be here.
    I went through all that in order to liberate you, my dear pretty Frenchwoman, from the Nazis.
    So don't I deserve your gratitude? And you know what's the most satisfying way to show it!
    You see, as a soldier, I often have had to go hungry, but I am absolutely starved in another way.
    It's been so long since I have held a woman tight in my arms and enjoyed coming inside her.
    And now you and I are here together, tonight! What could be a more natural act for a
    healthy young man and a young woman to enjoy together? Please understand that I
    don't hate you. Of course not, on the contrary, I love you! I love my pretty French sister.
    And now my pretty French sister's going to relax and let me enjoy making love to her.
    Enough with this talk! I have to be too quick because my turn's only for 15 minutes, and
    there are many comrades following me who also want to love their pretty French sister."

    Sometimes a soldier would offer food (as payment?) after he had finished raping a woman.
    The Frenchwomen kept being raped as waves of soldiers entered and then left the camp.
    Given the stigma of being raped--particularly by the soldiers of an ally (it would have been
    easier if the rapists were enemies), these Frenchwomen could hardly talk to anyone about
    their experiences after they had returned to France, and so they had to suffer in silence.

    I suppose that, if they had to choose, these Frenchwomen would say that their experiences
    of being in the concentration camp were worse than being gang-raped after being liberated'.
    But does that make these soldier's 'celebratory rape' acceptable?
  6. 20 Nov '17 03:53
    Many men here like to believe that women are naturally deceitful and vengeful creatures,
    eager to lie in order to get accused rapists unfairly punished as harshly as possible.
    On the contrary, in my experience, many women seem extraordinarily forgiving of their
    rapists, often making up rationalizations for what their rapists did to them.

    In 1945, Eva Ebner, a young German actress, was raped for several hours by Soviet soldiers.
    After they released her, she was fortunate to find an extraordinarily conscientious Soviet commander.
    He already had become aware that his soldiers were raping women, and he was determined to stop it.
    After looking over Eva (perhaps with her torn dress and clear signs of physical injuries),
    the Soviet commander concluded that she certainly had been raped recently.
    He also believed that she's a very honest woman, and he trusted her.

    He assembled a line-up of soldiers in the area and told her to identify her rapists.
    He promised her that her rapists would be immediately punished severely for their crimes.
    In RKKA, this often meant summary execution. (There are other cases of Soviet rapists
    being quickly shot, without any concern for the 'due process' of some Western courts.)
    This Soviet commander had given this young German woman the power of life-and-death
    over some of his own men. And the soldiers knew it. Eva recognized some of her rapists.
    She looked into the eyes of one man who had been particularly brutal when raping her.
    She saw his fear, as he struggled not to tremble and appear too conspicuously guilty.
    It would have been easy for Eva Ebner to identify her rapists and let Soviet military justice
    take its course.

    But Eva Ebner could not bring herself to do it. After this long war, all this bloodshed, all
    the German war crimes (of which she was vaguely aware) in the USSR, was her being
    raped by Soviet soldiers a kind of karmic payback? Eva felt that she could live through
    being gang-raped; it would not destroy her. She did not want to have the deaths of
    anyone, not even the enemy soldiers who had raped her, on her conscience.
    So she lied to protect her rapists. She said that they were not in the line-up.
    It's unknown what her rapists thought of her remarkable gesture of mercy or forgiveness.

    So Eva Ebner quickly forgave, in effect, the soldiers for raping her. But does that mean
    that every woman in the same situation must do the same? And does that mean that
    therefore it's acceptable for the soldiers to have raped her in the first place?
  7. 20 Nov '17 04:15 / 2 edits
    Not all rape victims were (or should be expected to be) as resilient as Eva Ebner.

    Gabi Köpp (1929-2010) was the author of a memoir with the poignant title of
    _Warum war ich bloß ein Mädchen?: Das Trauma einer Flucht 1945_

    In 1945, Gabi Köpp (then a 15 year old virgin) was raped scores, perhaps hundreds, of
    times within a few weeks by Soviet soldiers in East Prussia. She received no emotional
    support afterward from other women. Her mother forbade her to talk about her rapes.

    Gabi Köpp was an exceptionally intelligent woman, who became a professor of physics.
    But she newer could recover from the trauma of being raped so brutally in 1945.
    Even more than 60 years afterward, she often had nightmares, painfully reliving her rapes.
    Psychotherapy helped her, but only mildly.

    Another consequence is that her rapes put an end to any romantic or sexual interest in men.
    Apparently, being raped in 1945 was the last time that she had any sexual contact with a man.
    She never married or had a boyfriend. Perhaps shes never went out on a date with a man.
    Gabi Köpp has had a fulfilling life intellectually and culturally, but not romantically or sexually.

    Her memoir's title "Warum war ich bloß ein Mädchen?" means "Why did I have to be a girl?"
    Her story shows the power of rape to ruin a life.
  8. Standard member shavixmir
    Guppy poo
    20 Nov '17 05:07
    Talk about a light-hearted subject for a Monday morning...

    Some figures perhaps. Estimations vary, but at the high end of the spectrum it’s roughly: 800.000 German women raped by Western forces. 1.200.000 German women raped & raped-murdered by Soviet forces.

    Quite staggering considering it happens within, roughly, a 8 month period.

    Note-worthy is that there were various Soviet companies which, if a rapist was caught, did punish him (so the free-for-all wasn’t as accepted by military command as Stalin would, later, state).
    The significance of this is that Stalin’s later justification doesn’t mean that at the time of the behaviour commanders didn’t know that rape was wrong.

    There’s a great (actually don’t know if great is an appropriate discription) book (and movie) about Berlin ‘45.
    It’s called “A woman in Berlin” (something like that anyway). It’s a true account by a German journalist of what life was like the Summer after Berlin fell.
    I believe it was banned in Germany for quite some time. Well worth at least watching the movie.
  9. 20 Nov '17 05:33 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by @shavixmir
    Talk about a light-hearted subject for a Monday morning...

    Some figures perhaps. Estimations vary, but at the high end of the spectrum it’s roughly: 800.000 German women raped by Western forces. 1.200.000 German women raped & raped-murdered by Soviet forces.

    Quite staggering considering it happens within, roughly, a 8 month period.

    Note-worthy is ...[text shortened]...
    I believe it was banned in Germany for quite some time. Well worth at least watching the movie.
    I believe that I have read much more about this subject than everyone else here.

    "It’s called “A woman in Berlin” (something like that anyway). It’s a true account by
    a German journalist of what life was like the Summer after Berlin fell."
    --Shavixmir

    _Eine Frau in BerlIn_ by an anonymous woman, who was later identified as Marta Hillers (1911-2001).
    A biography (which I own) of her has been published in German (no English translation).

    "I believe it was banned in Germany for quite some time."
    --Shavixmir

    FALSE. It never was banned in Germany. It was first published in English.
    After it was published in Germany in 1959, the anonymous author was accused of
    'besmirching the honour of German women'. Stung by that harsh criticism, Marta Hillers
    refused to allow another edition to be published in her lifetime. I was among the probably
    few people who read and appreciated her memoir before it was reprinted after her death.
    Some Russian nationalists like to claim that the book must be a fabrication libeling heroic Soviet soldiers.
    So the book may be banned in Russia today.

    "Well worth at least watching the movie."
    --Shavixmir

    The film does not follow the book very closely, and it departs from it sometimes for apparently no good reason.
    For instance, in her book, she wrote that the first time that she was raped, it was by two men.
    Then a Soviet woman soldier walked by and noticed that she was being raped.
    The Soviet woman offered no sympathy and just laughed at the raped German woman.
    The film changes this scene to having her raped by only one soldier with no witnesses.
    I believe that it would have better to leave the scene as the author had described it.