29 Nov '09 09:43>
Originally posted by WajomaWhat I accept as true is that your perspective on things allows you to reach that conclusion, so kudos to you for your insight.
From the horses mouth. (Four words)
kmax, tries to justify the lies.
Originally posted by Sam The ShamUsing your own data from this article, you tell me where the trend is heading. It's pretty obvious China is taking over the role of manufacturing for the world.
China is "the world's manufacturing base"?
http://investing.curiouscatblog.net/2008/09/23/top-manufacturing-countries-in-2007/
Originally posted by sh76Look, building factories in china to sell cheap plastic goods to americans and the world means that china MUST put up smoke stacks and power plants. THEY MUST. They can't just magically produce things and somehow not emit greenhouse gases. Same for India.
But to simply leave China and India on the sidelines is a joke. Whatever we do to curb emissions won't get the job done unless China and India are in the disucssion and are factored into the effort.
Originally posted by uzlessThere is a third option. War.
There are only 2 real options to actually reduce emissions, and none of them are truly realistic options.
1. Cut the world population.
2. Get consumers to buy less things..
Originally posted by sh76If US cut their emmission to a quater of what it is today, then they would be on the same level as China is today. China is not the one to be to blamed here. In many things, yes, but in this matter, no.
What "good job"??
China has done squat to reduce (or limit the rise in) their emissions.
The reason they only produce 1/4 of the emissions per capita as western countries do is because they were repressed by communism for so many decades that their economy was mired in third World status until they finally got smart and instituted capitalism. Now that the ...[text shortened]... India does) then everything the west does to limit emissions will be borderline irrelevant.
Originally posted by FabianFnasGreat. Adopt that attitude if you like. But, that attitude means that emissions won't be cut. In fact, emissions will continue to rise for the foreseeable future under that attitude no matter what the West does.
If US cut their emmission to a quater of what it is today, then they would be on the same level as China is today. China is not the one to be to blamed here. In many things, yes, but in this matter, no.
No, not yet. But perhaps in the future, when every Chinese citizen wants their own car, as Americans have had for a long time. But why blame China now hen USA is on the same level per capita as China, then Americans can point fingers. Not before.
Originally posted by uzlessIncidentally, I have one question. Not a challenge; just a question.
Look, building factories in china to sell cheap plastic goods to americans and the world means that china MUST put up smoke stacks and power plants. THEY MUST. They can't just magically produce things and somehow not emit greenhouse gases. Same for India.
There are only 2 real options to actually reduce emissions, and none of them are truly realistic op ...[text shortened]... tion upon yourselves first. Mirrors are made to look at yourself, not for profit margins.
Originally posted by sh76I think around 1/6 of all EU imports (from non-member countries) are from China.
Does Europe import stuff from China also? Does Chinese crap line the shelves of your five and dimes like it does our Walmarts? Or is everything you use in Europe (and Canada for that matter) produced domestically?
Originally posted by sh76I'm talking about CO2 emissions. Nothing else.
Great. Adopt that attitude if you like. But, that attitude means that emissions won't be cut. In fact, emissions will continue to rise for the foreseeable future under that attitude no matter what the West does.
Originally posted by FabianFnasI'm also only talking about CO2 emissions.
I'm talking about CO2 emissions. Nothing else.
If everyone, every individual, came down to China's level of emision per capita, then much of the problem would be solved. One country that has very much to do in this matter is (you've already guessed it) is USA. More than four times emission per capita more than that of China.
You can read in many thi ...[text shortened]... fine, but then open a new thread about that. I'm talking about CO2 emissions. Nothing else.
Originally posted by sh76I don't know anything about your aunties balls. And that's besides the point.
I'm also only talking about CO2 emissions.
===If everyone, every individual, came down to China's level of emision per capita, then much of the problem would be solved. ===
Well, yes, and if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle.
It's not going to happen. On the contrary, China's going to come UP to everyone else's level a lot faster than everyone else is going to come down to China's level.
Therein lies the problem.
Originally posted by FabianFnasSo, you're saying that first the US should cut emissions and everyone else should sit back and go on their merry way. Then, if and only if, the US succeeds in cutting emissions, everyone else can follow suit?
I don't know anything about your aunties balls. And that's besides the point.
Sure, if I had the previledge to have 4 times of something more than others, and som of this previledge have to go down, the of course I wouldn't want to lose that previledge, rather would I want others to cut down their previledges as much as needed, only I don't have to.
...[text shortened]... of a unit here.
We are talking about now. Not in the future. Now. And we're in a hurry.
Originally posted by sh76Of course it does. China exports to virtually every country in the world. And this is exactly my point. You can't expect China to keep on increasing it's manufacturing output every year and not increase its emissions.
Incidentally, I have one question. Not a challenge; just a question.
Does Europe import stuff from China also? Does Chinese crap line the shelves of your five and dimes like it does our Walmarts? Or is everything you use in Europe (and Canada for that matter) produced domestically?
Originally posted by uzlessYou want to know why "no one seems to want to talk about" that issue? I'll tell you why. Because it's an issue on which the US cannot be blamed. The US has one of the lower population densities per habitable square mile.
But honestly, we will never be able to reduce emissions until we slow/reverse the population increase. It's the one elephant that no one seems to want to talk about or even understand. Over-population is the real environmental problem and it drives every single issue we face today.