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  1. 14 Oct '12 22:50
    http://dailycaller.com/2012/10/07/report-exit-polls-show-hugo-chavez-lost-venezuelan-election/#ixzz28fuknubX

    I was just reading this article saying that Chavez was losing the exit polls right before the election. Also, he sent out tanks into the streets in mass before the election was over.

    Discuss.
  2. 15 Oct '12 06:33 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by whodey
    http://dailycaller.com/2012/10/07/report-exit-polls-show-hugo-chavez-lost-venezuelan-election/#ixzz28fuknubX

    I was just reading this article saying that Chavez was losing the exit polls right before the election. Also, he sent out tanks into the streets in mass before the election was over.

    Discuss.
    Of course it's possible, but some things to keep in mind.

    1) Exit polls are notoriously unreliable even among polls.
    2) Your article enumerates the places where exit polls were held. I don't know how much of the country those areas mentioned represent, but if they have to specify where polls were held, it's probably not nation-wide.
    3) The newspaper which conducted the polls, linked to in your article, is known to be conservative, which means there is a chance of bias in favour of Chavez's opponents alongside the variability.
  3. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    15 Oct '12 15:14
    Originally posted by whodey
    http://dailycaller.com/2012/10/07/report-exit-polls-show-hugo-chavez-lost-venezuelan-election/#ixzz28fuknubX

    I was just reading this article saying that Chavez was losing the exit polls right before the election. Also, he sent out tanks into the streets in mass before the election was over.

    Discuss.
    The official results are here: http://www.cne.gob.ve/resultado_presidencial_2012/r/1/reg_000000.html

    Chavez won all the places mentioned though Miranda was very close (7,000 vote difference with more than 1.6 million cast). Opposition candidate Capriles conceded defeat and admitted the election was fair. Most of the polls in Venezuela had Chavez leading by 10-18 points in the weeks before the election except for one firm, Consultores 21, which had shown a slight lead for Capriles.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan_presidential_election,_2012

    Consultores 21 is apparently the Venezuelan equivalent of Rassmussen.
  4. 15 Oct '12 15:24
    I don't think there is any evidence of significant election fraud. Chávez is a douche, but he is reasonably popular and he seems to have won the elections fairly. No need to get paranoid (again), whodey.
  5. 15 Oct '12 21:11
    Originally posted by whodey
    http://dailycaller.com/2012/10/07/report-exit-polls-show-hugo-chavez-lost-venezuelan-election/#ixzz28fuknubX

    I was just reading this article saying that Chavez was losing the exit polls right before the election. Also, he sent out tanks into the streets in mass before the election was over.

    Discuss.
    Exit polls also showed Kerry ahead of Bush in significant numbers in 2004. Not a fan of Chavez, and I have no opinion as to the fairness of the elections. But you need more evidence than exit polls.
  6. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    15 Oct '12 22:56
    Originally posted by whodey
    http://dailycaller.com/2012/10/07/report-exit-polls-show-hugo-chavez-lost-venezuelan-election/#ixzz28fuknubX

    I was just reading this article saying that Chavez was losing the exit polls right before the election. Also, he sent out tanks into the streets in mass before the election was over.

    Discuss.
    Worth adding that in 2002 Chavez was the victim of an attempted coup with US sponsorship. The security of the state and its elected government is a responsibility not to be neglected.
  7. 15 Oct '12 23:27
    I remember that, and I remember the Bush administration press conference announcing that he was no longer in power, or at least implying it.
  8. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    16 Oct '12 13:35
    The occurrence of voter fraud in Venezuela’s presidential election, to whatever extent it occurred, may be far less significant than the effect a comprehensive socialist program has had on degenerating the better judgment of voters with respect to what’s in the country’s long-term interests. Rather, habituation to radical redistributionist policies have kept a comfortable portion of voters reliably in Chavez’s pocket, despite his systematic dismantlement of Venezuelan democracy and egregious abuses of power.

    The taste for “bread and circuses” governance among Venezuelans has seemingly caused much of the population to overlook Chavez’s totalitarian transformation of the political landscape. Chavez first assumed the presidency in 1999, after which he began a decade-long accumulation of near total control over Venezuela’s economy. His power was amassed through engineered government takeovers of the country’s oil, electrical and telecommunications industries.

    Moreover, Chavez’s takeover of Venezuela’s economy was joined by a concurrent hijacking of the country’s governmental institutions. Aided by his control of the National Assembly, Chavez ruthlessly quell any opposition from Venezuela’s judiciary, press, and political opponents.

    The Chavez government’s policies centered on a massive wealth redistribution scheme financed mostly by Venezuela’s estimated $1 trillion in oil revenues. This provided billions of dollars in social programs for poor Venezuelans, including free goods and services like medical care, public housing and education.

    Chavez’s role as the Venezuelan Robin Hood has built him a strong base of support with the masses, a base which he was eager to exploit this election with a deeply divisive campaign of class warfare.

    http://frontpagemag.com/2012/frank-crimi/chavezs-victory-blame-the-socialist-public/

    Reading this diatribe from the Freedom Centre, more fully the David Horowitz Freedom Center, it is hard to know whether to laugh or weep at the sheer madness of it. Chavez' "takeover of Venezuela's economy" is actually a government takeover, Chavez' Robin Hood policies are of course redistributive, Chavez "bribes" his electorate with medical care, public housing, education!!! His "systematic dismantlement of Venezuelan democracy and egregious abuses of power" appears to resemble the policies of most post WW2 Western European governments.

    So before Chavez did all this, just who did benefit from Venezuelan oil? Who is it that has been deprived of the wealth which he is redistributing and what was the moral entitlement behind that?

    Did not someone once say that if the people do not want revolution then the people should be replaced? It appears that this is now the position of the Neo-Liberal Right. Is it not patently clear that they are the ones attacking and opposed to democratic government? Is it not obvious that in the US government is in the grip of corporate interests at the expense of the public?
  9. 16 Oct '12 13:47
    Originally posted by finnegan
    Did not someone once say that if the people do not want revolution then the people should be replaced?
    It was Brecht, in a poem entitled "Die Loesung" / "The Solution" (I paste both English and German versions here):

    Nach dem Aufstand des 17. Juni
    Ließ der Sekretär des Schriftstellerverbands
    In der Stalinallee Flugblätter verteilen
    Auf denen zu lesen war, daß das Volk
    Das Vertrauen der Regierung verscherzt habe
    Und es nur durch verdoppelte Arbeit
    Zurückerobern könne. Wäre es da
    Nicht doch einfacher, die Regierung
    Löste das Volk auf und
    Wählte ein anderes?

    After the uprising of the 17th June
    The Secretary of the Writer's Union
    Had leaflets distributed in the Stalinallee
    Stating that the people
    Had forfeited the confidence of the government
    And could win it back only
    By redoubled efforts. Would it not be easier
    In that case for the government
    To dissolve the people
    And elect another?
  10. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    16 Oct '12 16:51
    Thanks, Teinosuke
  11. 16 Oct '12 19:34
    Originally posted by finnegan
    [quote]The occurrence of voter fraud in Venezuela’s presidential election, to whatever extent it occurred, may be far less significant than the effect a comprehensive socialist program has had on degenerating the better judgment of voters with respect to what’s in the country’s long-term interests. Rather, habituation to radical redistributionist policies h ...[text shortened]... n the US government is in the grip of corporate interests at the expense of the public?
    Horowitz writes just like he did as a leftist back at Ramparts in the 1960s. He got traded to another team. It's all part of the game.

    The right got Horowitz, and the left got Kevin Phillips. I think the left comes out the better.
  12. 18 Oct '12 16:31
    Richard Gott, reporting from Maracaibo:

    http://www.lrb.co.uk/blog/2012/10/09/richard-gott/in-maracaibo/

    With Hugo Chávez’s election victory, the uncertainty that had built up about Venezuela’s future, sloppily fostered by the media in Europe and the United States, was swept away at a stroke. Venezuela enjoyed one of those great explosions of popular joy and excitement on Sunday night that occur just occasionally in Latin America, and of which I have been privileged to watch not a few. It may not survive – the euphoria created by Chávez’s Bolivarian Revolution may evaporate as quickly as it began – but it should be enjoyed while it lasts. Chávez is the most popular figure not just in Venezuela but throughout Latin America, and it is high time that this was more widely recognised. Where in Europe can a politician achieve such popularity?
  13. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    18 Oct '12 19:28
    Originally posted by Teinosuke
    Richard Gott, reporting from Maracaibo:

    http://www.lrb.co.uk/blog/2012/10/09/richard-gott/in-maracaibo/

    With Hugo Chávez’s election victory, the uncertainty that had built up about Venezuela’s future, sloppily fostered by the media in Europe and the United States, was swept away at a stroke. Venezuela enjoyed one of those great explosions of popul ...[text shortened]... t this was more widely recognised. Where in Europe can a politician achieve such popularity?
    Well we did have a visit from that nice Mr Mitt Romney recently, though I think his popularity fell short of that enjoyed by Chavez. Still, I hope he brought home pleasant memories of his reception.