Originally posted by MacSwainYeah, but they were emasculated. They paid their enemies off and hired outsiders to fight for them. The investment in the walls of Constantinople show a defensive mindset. The reliance on mercenaries led to one becoming dominant in the city (General Aspar of the Alans).
Glad you agree.
Although some believe the Roman Empire did not fall until the fall of Constantinople to the Ottoman Empire sometime in the 15th century. There were many other non-religous factors involved.
Originally posted by AThousandYoungWe agree.
Yeah, but they were emasculated. They paid their enemies off and hired outsiders to fight for them. The investment in the walls of Constantinople show a defensive mindset. The reliance on mercenaries led to one becoming dominant in the city (General Aspar of the Alans).
The point of my original post - Islam could not be blamed for the fall of the Roman Empire because of the fall of Constantinople to the Ottoman Empire, as some have written. Many other factors had caused the underpinnings of the Eastern Roman Empire to weaken.
Same problems you mentioned in your post existed in the Western Empire before its fall. The Christian influence was only one of MANY factors that caused their demise and can hardly be singled out as THE cause.
Originally posted by AThousandYoungNo, Christianity lengthened the life of the moribund empire, which had already undergone serious crises by the time Constantine used it as means to unify his subjects. Justin's subsequent attempt to reintroduce paganism was very unpopular.
Rome grew to great power as polytheists, with special reverence for Jupiter and Mars. They took over Europe and North Africa. Then they adopted Christianity and it all fell apart.
Discuss.
As far as I recall non-Christian practices were only outlawed in the time of Justinian, who considered himself Roman but is widely considered the first Byzantine emperor.
Why did Rome fall? Because of the Huns...they were responsible for setting the Germanic tribes (Goths etc) on the march in search of somewhere Hun-free to live.
Originally posted by rwingettConstantine established a monarchy system, in which leaders were chosen based on who Daddy is instead of merit. This gave a clear rule for succession, but this method leads to poor leaders.
I think the lack of an orderly line of succession between emperors contributed more to the downfall of the Empire than anything else.
Originally posted by MacSwainYour comparison is flawed. Christianity was INSIDE Rome, adopted by Rome. Islam was the religion of a competitor empire.
We agree.
The point of my original post - Islam could not be blamed for the fall of the Roman Empire because of the fall of Constantinople to the Ottoman Empire, as some have written. Many other factors had caused the underpinnings of the Eastern Roman Empire to weaken.
Same problems you mentioned in your post existed in the Western Empire before i ...[text shortened]... as only one of MANY factors that caused their demise and can hardly be singled out as THE cause.
Well the rise of Christianity did help destroy the Roman empire but it was a complex assortment of reasons that all had a play in the destruction of Rome here are just some.
Christianity- helped destroy the over all tollerence of the empire before they would tollereate litterally any religion and bring in the outside religion into their own. But when the christians took over the put a stop to the tolerence that their country had used before, they did much like Alexander the Great.
the shear size of the country made it harder to control and maintain as well as be on the ball of what was going on.
Lavish spending within the major cities like Rome caused it to go broke and be forced to highly tax already added providences and to go conquer other nations to try to add income. This also forced them to move their troops it the out-skirts of the country weakening the defence in other areas.
Absolutly f'ing insane rulers who ruined the country such as nero, caligula, and I forget his name at the moment but he was 16 would walk around backwards with a rock all day for his cult, had his gay lover wip him in public and was finally killed by his guard when he order to be castrated.
Also imbreading within the elite upper class, in order to preserve wealth with in their own family they would marry with in the family. Which can cause several health risks.
there are many other reasons in the collapse of rome but I don't feel like typing any more. But these are some of major reasons.
Originally posted by Hank ReardenSo Christianity caused problems because it bred intolerance. Hmmmmm...😉
Well the rise of Christianity did help destroy the Roman empire but it was a complex assortment of reasons that all had a play in the destruction of Rome here are just some.
Christianity- helped destroy the over all tollerence of the empire before they would tollereate litterally any religion and bring in the outside religion into their own. But whe ...[text shortened]... e collapse of rome but I don't feel like typing any more. But these are some of major reasons.
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Originally posted by AThousandYoungNot so crazy. look at the history of constantinople. It positively thrived when islam took it over as Islam was at the time a more tolerant religion.
So Christianity caused problems because it bred intolerance. Hmmmmm...😉
Christianity has not a good history in tolerating religions.
Christian societies succeeded when religion was not the prime driver of government policy.
The great success of Rome was that it was amazingly inclusive and willing to learn from the cultures it conquered. It offered slaves and foreigners opportunities to work to freedom and power. It was a bit like the US used to be.
Of course it became fearful and a wall building, over regulated, arrogant centralised monster. If you try to keep barbarians out, it is only a matter of time before the walls come tumbling down. They forgot that Rome was built on the energy of these barbarians.
Originally posted by AThousandYoungFlawed? Your premise is: Christianity is THE cause for the fall of the Roman Empire. I do not believe any religion was THE cause. You are not reading, or ignoring, all other posts listing the many faults which accumulated to create the Fall.
Your comparison is flawed. Christianity was INSIDE Rome, adopted by Rome. Islam was the religion of a competitor empire.
For you to be correct and make Christianity THE cause, the converse would have to be true.
Try this: If Christianity never existed would the Roman Empire have stood? Please be sure to explain how Odoacer would disappear without presense of Christianity.
Originally posted by MacSwainCan you make this thread more interesting? I think ATY's question has been answered.
Flawed? Your premise is: Christianity is THE cause for the fall of the Roman Empire. I do not believe any religion was THE cause. You are not reading, or ignoring, all other posts listing the many faults which accumulated to create the Fall.
For you to be correct and make Christianity THE cause, the converse would have to be true.
Try this: If Chris ...[text shortened]... e stood? Please be sure to explain how Odoacer would disappear without presense of Christianity.
Originally posted by petrosianpupilWha?? Christian societies of Europe flourished when Papal power was a major force, both Politically and Religiously. Check Pope Sixtus IV, Pope Alexander VI, Pope Julius II and Pope Clement VII and you will find they were "prime drivers" of government policy.
[b]Christian societies succeeded when religion was not the prime driver of government policy.
Originally posted by MacSwainI abandoned that premise on the first page.
Flawed? Your premise is: Christianity is THE cause for the fall of the Roman Empire. I do not believe any religion was THE cause. You are not reading, or ignoring, all other posts listing the many faults which accumulated to create the Fall.
For you to be correct and make Christianity THE cause, the converse would have to be true.
Try this: If Chris ...[text shortened]... e stood? Please be sure to explain how Odoacer would disappear without presense of Christianity.
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Originally posted by MacSwainAlexander VI--the Borgia Pope, who paid for timeless works of (dubiously neo-pagan) art with money from indulgence sales? Kudos to him, but you can hardly call his politics "Christian". In fact, his success was in direct proportion to the un-Christianity of his acts. Besides, none of these fellows lived in the Roman Empire, did they?
Wha?? Christian societies of Europe flourished when Papal power was a major force, both Politically and Religiously. Check Pope Sixtus IV, Pope Alexander VI, Pope Julius II and Pope Clement VII and you will find they were "prime drivers" of government policy.