Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Zugzwang
    Joined
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    05 Mar '19 20:03
    Many Americans here apparently believe that parents should have
    about the absolute right to make health care decisions for their children.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/mar/05/ethan-lindenberger-ohio-congress-vaccines

    "I defied mother to get vaccinated for safety of me and others, US teen says
    Ethan Lindenberger tells Congress anti-vaxxers such as his mother
    obtain information ‘anecdotally’ from web not doctors."

    "When he later learned that his mother preferred to obtain information
    from church and internet anti-vaccination groups rather than the
    medical profession, he decided to act for himself and get vaccinated
    for influenza, hepatitis A, hepatitis B and HPV."

    “Many people don’t resonate well with data and numbers – they resonate better through stories.
    We see that with the anti-vaccine community. A lot of the foundation they
    build with parents is on an anecdotal level, sharing stories and experiences."
    --Ethan Lindenberger

    Should he have been able to choose to get vaccinated *before* he
    became an adult legally (age 18)?
  2. Joined
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    05 Mar '19 22:14
    @duchess64 said
    Many Americans here apparently believe that parents should have
    about the absolute right to make health care decisions for their children.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/mar/05/ethan-lindenberger-ohio-congress-vaccines

    "I defied mother to get vaccinated for safety of me and others, US teen says
    Ethan Lindenberger tells Congress anti-vaxxers such as his mot ...[text shortened]...
    Should he have been able to choose to get vaccinated *before* he
    became an adult legally (age 18)?
    idiots are allowed to have children. there is no qualification needed to bring a life into the world and take care of it.


    absolutely some parents are unfit to take care of their children and absolutely it is right to take their parental rights in some cases. We do that already. The only issue is how fast can we add Jehovah's witnesses refusal to allow blood transfusions and imbeciles refusing to vaccinate their children to the list of people unfit to care for children.
  3. Zugzwang
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    06 Mar '19 01:311 edit
    @zahlanzi said
    idiots are allowed to have children. there is no qualification needed to bring a life into the world and take care of it.

    absolutely some parents are unfit to take care of their children and absolutely it is right to take their parental rights in some cases. We do that already. The only issue is how fast can we add Jehovah's witnesses refusal to allow blood transfusions and imbeciles refusing to vaccinate their children to the list of people unfit to care for children.
    I suspect that some Americans here would have no objection to American parents refusing
    to have their children vaccinated and then having those children die of preventable diseases.
    Some Americans would admire those parents for 'fighting for freedom' or whatever.
  4. Zugzwang
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    06 Mar '19 05:16
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/05/anti-vaxx-propaganda-internet-tech

    "Anti-vaxx propaganda is flooding the internet. Will tech companies act?"
  5. Joined
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    06 Mar '19 08:00
    @duchess64 said
    I suspect that some Americans here would have no objection to American parents refusing
    to have their children vaccinated and then having those children die of preventable diseases.
    Some Americans would admire those parents for 'fighting for freedom' or whatever.
    And society must sometimes leave behind its slowest members and improve despite them.
  6. Joined
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    06 Mar '19 14:29
    @zahlanzi said
    And society must sometimes leave behind its slowest members and improve despite them.
    35 U.S. states have eliminated an age requirement for hunting. A parent can give a toddler in diapers a loaded rifle in the woods. Yes, a mentor must accompany the infant. However, I find such laws deplorable.
    https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/midwest/ct-wisconsin-hunting-age-20171113-story.html
  7. Joined
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    06 Mar '19 15:52
    @phranny said
    35 U.S. states have eliminated an age requirement for hunting. A parent can give a toddler in diapers a loaded rifle in the woods. Yes, a mentor must accompany the infant. However, I find such laws deplorable.
    https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/midwest/ct-wisconsin-hunting-age-20171113-story.html
    google how many underage girls get married in the US since we are trying to depress each other😀
  8. Joined
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    06 Mar '19 16:161 edit
    @duchess64 said
    Many Americans here apparently believe that parents should have
    about the absolute right to make health care decisions for their children.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/mar/05/ethan-lindenberger-ohio-congress-vaccines

    "I defied mother to get vaccinated for safety of me and others, US teen says
    Ethan Lindenberger tells Congress anti-vaxxers such as his mot ...[text shortened]...
    Should he have been able to choose to get vaccinated *before* he
    became an adult legally (age 18)?
    The main problem, in a classical liberal society that values individual freedom, is that the anti-vaxx parent is making a choice which, if made the same way by every parent, would convert an isolated infection into a pandemic. This is predictable. Such situations, if genuine, must be addressed if the society is to continue to provide maximum freedom to the individuals that comprise it.

    It is also reminiscent of the issue of in loco parentis but in a reverse sort of way, in that the parent would rather not cede direct, exclusive control.
  9. Zugzwang
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    06 Mar '19 20:46
    @js357 said
    The main problem, in a classical liberal society that values individual freedom, is that the anti-vaxx parent is making a choice which, if made the same way by every parent, would convert an isolated infection into a pandemic. This is predictable. Such situations, if genuine, must be addressed if the society is to continue to provide maximum freedom to the individuals that comp ...[text shortened]... i] but in a reverse sort of way, in that the parent would rather not cede direct, exclusive control.
    "The main problem, in a classical liberal society that values individual freedom..."
    --JS357

    It may 'value individual freedom' very selectively or hypocritically.

    In some US states (e.g. New York), a girl under age 18 could get a legal abortion
    without parental notification or consent. Could she also get a legal vaccination?
  10. Germany
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    06 Mar '19 21:10
    @duchess64 said

    Should he have been able to choose to get vaccinated *before* he
    became an adult legally (age 18)?
    Not vaccinating your kids isn't a legitimate option, and it shouldn't be available.
  11. Zugzwang
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    06 Mar '19 21:15
    @kazetnagorra said
    Not vaccinating your kids isn't a legitimate option, and it shouldn't be available.
    In the very religious USA, however, a parent could claim a religious objection to vaccination.
    And almost all politicians, if not also the courts, would accept it as legitimate.
  12. Germany
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    07 Mar '19 08:02
    @duchess64 said
    In the very religious USA, however, a parent could claim a religious objection to vaccination.
    And almost all politicians, if not also the courts, would accept it as legitimate.
    Obviously, in a secular society, a religious objection cannot be treated differently from any other objection.
  13. Joined
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    07 Mar '19 08:58
    @js357 said
    The main problem, in a classical liberal society that values individual freedom, is that the anti-vaxx parent is making a choice which, if made the same way by every parent, would convert an isolated infection into a pandemic. This is predictable. Such situations, if genuine, must be addressed if the society is to continue to provide maximum freedom to the individuals that comp ...[text shortened]... i] but in a reverse sort of way, in that the parent would rather not cede direct, exclusive control.
    we are thinking too much about parenting as a right and not a privilege. You don't have a right to your child. You are merely the care provider. You provide care until you prove unfit to provide it, in which case we already have ways to remove children and place them in the care of someone that is fit.

    We worry too much about trampling on the rights of the parent when the well being of the child should always take precedence.

    Not vaccinating children should be considered child abuse. It is child abuse, we simply didn't make laws on this yet because, in the past, we never thought someone would be so dumb as to dismiss established science that saved millions.
  14. Standard memberwolfgang59
    Mr. Wolf
    at home
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    07 Mar '19 10:29
    @kazetnagorra said
    Obviously, in a secular society, a religious objection cannot be treated differently from any other objection.
    In a secular society a religious objection should be given no weight.
    Only the facts and current best-practice matter.

    Otherwise one could make up a religion extolling any sort of mad practice.
    (Like circumcision or FGM)
  15. SubscriberSuzianne
    Misfit Queen
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    08 Mar '19 02:19
    @wolfgang59 said
    In a secular society a religious objection should be given no weight.
    Only the facts and current best-practice matter.

    Otherwise one could make up a religion extolling any sort of mad practice.
    (Like circumcision or FGM)
    Like Judaism? Like Islam?
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