21 Aug 11
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-14608290
Now, these people are guilty of extreme stupidity so I can't feel too sorry for them, but it does show the oppressive and brutal nature of a regime that people would be jailed for 8 years for maybe (and it's a big maybe; remember the British sailors' kidnapping?) making a navigation mistake in their hike.
21 Aug 11
Originally posted by sh76Not to defend Iran, but they could actually be spies, right? There is a good argument that not everything the government tells us is 100% true.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-14608290
Now, these people are guilty of extreme stupidity so I can't feel too sorry for them, but it does show the oppressive and brutal nature of a regime that people would be jailed for 8 years for maybe (and it's a big maybe; remember the British sailors' kidnapping?) making a navigation mistake in their hike.
21 Aug 11
Originally posted by sh76Agreed on stupidity, however it is in man's nature to push limits, and to enjoy dangerous behavior.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-14608290
Now, these people are guilty of extreme stupidity so I can't feel too sorry for them, but it does show the oppressive and brutal nature of a regime that people would be jailed for 8 years for maybe (and it's a big maybe; remember the British sailors' kidnapping?) making a navigation mistake in their hike.
We have had almost as bad cases in the US, including routine stops of innocent people, and sometimes confiscation of property with no 4th amendment protection. One of my breakfast buddies was stopped in Texas near the border, asked a lot of questions during a random stop. When asked if they could search his motor home, he declined saying if they had to ask, then they knew they had no right to search. They called in dogs, got an alert, no indication of what. In the search, they found his gun, a fair amount of cash, all legally owned and legitimately possessed, but they still detained him another day based on this totally unconstitutional search. His problem was minor compared to some horror stories where people lost their life savings in similar witch hunts, and even spent years in jail.
21 Aug 11
1 edit
Originally posted by sh76People from country A that is threatening military action against Country B who "hike" across Country B's border are quite likely to be treated harshly.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-14608290
Now, these people are guilty of extreme stupidity so I can't feel too sorry for them, but it does show the oppressive and brutal nature of a regime that people would be jailed for 8 years for maybe (and it's a big maybe; remember the British sailors' kidnapping?) making a navigation mistake in their hike.
Of course, the British sailors weren't "kidnapped".
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21 Aug 11
Originally posted by sh76something doesn't smell right... why would you go to iraq to trek so close to iran? doesn't make any sense, a lot of countries easier to get to and safer than iraq to go trekking... and from what i've seen of the pictures of that area, a lot nicer places as well.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-14608290
Now, these people are guilty of extreme stupidity so I can't feel too sorry for them, but it does show the oppressive and brutal nature of a regime that people would be jailed for 8 years for maybe (and it's a big maybe; remember the British sailors' kidnapping?) making a navigation mistake in their hike.
- Joined
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- Moves
- 6788
21 Aug 11
Originally posted by sh76My thought is that these fellows became bargaining chips and still are. Whether or not they were on a mission was irrelevant. With the sentence, Iran increased the pressure on the US to bargain, and stays in play. They also sent a message -- you don't have to be an obvious spy, so don't even think about infiltrating. I don't think it is over.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-14608290
Now, these people are guilty of extreme stupidity so I can't feel too sorry for them, but it does show the oppressive and brutal nature of a regime that people would be jailed for 8 years for maybe (and it's a big maybe; remember the British sailors' kidnapping?) making a navigation mistake in their hike.
21 Aug 11
Originally posted by trev33Shane Bauer is a freelance journalist who has written many pieces about the Middle East. That he just happened to be innocently hiking around the Iranian border seems a bit implausible. Whether he's a spy or not, I have no way of knowing; he has been very critical of some US policies in the Middle East but that's not dispositive.
something doesn't smell right... why would you go to iraq to trek so close to iran? doesn't make any sense, a lot of countries easier to get to and safer than iraq to go trekking... and from what i've seen of the pictures of that area, a lot nicer places as well.
22 Aug 11
Originally posted by no1marauderIf he's a spy, why won't they release a shred of evidence suggesting such?
Shane Bauer is a freelance journalist who has written many pieces about the Middle East. That he just happened to be innocently hiking around the Iranian border seems a bit implausible. Whether he's a spy or not, I have no way of knowing; he has been very critical of some US policies in the Middle East but that's not dispositive.
22 Aug 11
Originally posted by JS357The US cannot bargain away anything of significance for their freedom. If you do, you just embolden them. These idiots took the gamble when they went hiking in the Iraqi-Iranian mountains and they lost the gamble. They don't deserve to be in Iranian prison for 8 years, but they made their own bed.
My thought is that these fellows became bargaining chips and still are. Whether or not they were on a mission was irrelevant. With the sentence, Iran increased the pressure on the US to bargain, and stays in play. They also sent a message -- you don't have to be an obvious spy, so don't even think about infiltrating. I don't think it is over.
22 Aug 11
Originally posted by sh76Would it be different if they actually were spies? Or should "The Secretary disavow any knowledge of their actions?"
The US cannot bargain away anything of significance for their freedom. If you do, you just embolden them. These idiots took the gamble when they went hiking in the Iraqi-Iranian mountains and they lost the gamble. They don't deserve to be in Iranian prison for 8 years, but they made their own bed.
22 Aug 11
Originally posted by no1marauderIf they were actually spies, then the government has to do what's in the best interest of the United States in general, whatever they make that determination to be.
Would it be different if they actually were spies? Or should "The Secretary disavow any knowledge of their actions?"
But I see no reason to assume that they were spies. You say that we're reliant on biased western sources, but I've looked at Al Jazeira and I see no reference to any released evidence against the hikers either.
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2011/08/2011820132522606601.html
22 Aug 11
Interesting development:
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/middle-east/2010/10/23/wikileaks-us-hikers-iran-were-forewarned
It would appear that the military not only knew of the hikers' presence in the region, but warned them in advance that they were inviting trouble.
Furthermore, it seems the military themselves concluded the hikers were there with the express purpose of creating publicity ... not rock climbing or hiking.
On second thought, while it is certainly detestable of Iran to put them in prison for 8 years, let them stay there. They clearly made their own beds. Let them lie in them.
22 Aug 11
Originally posted by sh76Anyway, I didn't say they were spies. I said your assumption they were innocent hikers is implausible. Do you think that the fact that Shane Bauer was a freelance journalist who was written extensively on Middle Eastern issues is completely irrelevant?
If they were actually spies, then the government has to do what's in the best interest of the United States in general, whatever they make that determination to be.
But I see no reason to assume that they were spies. You say that we're reliant on biased western sources, but I've looked at Al Jazeira and I see no reference to any released evidence against th ...[text shortened]... kers either.
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2011/08/2011820132522606601.html
22 Aug 11
Originally posted by no1marauderI think they were probably there to stir up attention to themselves and to facilitate Bauer's war stories and maybe to find something that he could write an article about.
Anyway, I didn't say they were spies. I said your assumption they were innocent hikers is implausible. Do you think that the fact that Shane Bauer was a freelance journalist who was written extensively on Middle Eastern issues is completely irrelevant?
He was not a U.S. spy; I think that's obvious. Either way, Iran has convicted him as a "spy' and not released a shred of evidence to this effect. As such, I will continue to assume that he was not a US spy and that Iran is holding him as negotiating leverage with the US.
As such, because Bauer's stupidity is what landed him there, I do not condone giving Iran anything of substance for his release.