Debates
26 Apr 22
26 Apr 22
TLDR: Why does USA get Monroe Doctrine but Russia doesn’t get Ukraine? Why are Russia’s security concerns taken more seriously by some people than Ukraine’s security concerns? Is it simply USA>Russia>Ukraine and we should just accept it?
Putin not long ago criticized the USA using the old Roman phrase “Quod Licet Jovi, Non Licet Bovi” which translates to “What Jupiter is allowed the ox is not allowed”.
By this he implies that the USA acts like Russia’s superior when instead the USA should treat Russia as an equal. And I can see what he means to some extent; notably in that the USA unilaterally claims dominion over all of the Americas for security reasons but opposes Russua having a similar security zone.
But then Russia and China like to flex their size and power over other countries, so they are claiming a superior status to those other countries i.e. Ukraine’s security concerns are ignored by Russia. Some of our posters here implicitly accept this position when they oppose helping Ukraine defend itself.
This level of inequality is actually codified into international law via the UNSC veto status of the Big Five.
Are all countries equal? Should some be given unequal consideration in what they can reasonably demand from the international community? Is it might makes right, money rules or…what?
26 Apr 22
@athousandyoung saidAre all countries equal?
TLDR: Why does USA get Monroe Doctrine but Russia doesn’t get Ukraine? Why are Russia’s security concerns taken more seriously by some people than Ukraine’s security concerns? Is it simply USA>Russia>Ukraine and we should just accept it?
Putin not long ago criticized the USA using the old Roman phrase “Quod Licet Jovi, Non Licet Bovi” which translates to “What Jupit ...[text shortened]... an reasonably demand from the international community? Is it might makes right, money rules or…what?
In theory yes, they are. In the real world however the "might makes right" rule generally applies, (with hypocrisy attached!) 😏
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26 Apr 22
1 edit
@mchill saidVery true and, as I oft repeat,
Are all countries equal?
In theory yes, they are. In the real world however the "might makes right" rule generally applies, (with hypocrisy attached!) 😏
''The victors write the history books.''
Had our own Revolutionary War failed,
George Washington would be recalled
as just another failed terrorist.
More recently, had Iraq prevailed,
Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld would all
have been charged with war crimes.
26 Apr 22
@athousandyoung saidI don't think this is the case with China, other than regions it has already claims as it's own like Taiwan or Hong Kong.
But then Russia and China like to flex their size and power over other countries
Unlike the U.S. or Russia, China seems to prefer to use its gigantic markets as a weapon, whether than military. China isn't out there invading other countries and disrupting other political systems.
26 Apr 22
1 edit
@vivify said
I don't think this is the case with China, other than regions it has already claims as it's own like Taiwan or Hong Kong.
Unlike the U.S. or Russia, China seems to prefer to use its gigantic markets as a weapon, whether than military. China isn't out there invading other countries and disrupting other political systems.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/07/29/AR2010072906416.html
China is a big country and other countries are small countries, and that's just a fact," [Chinese Foreign Minister Yang] said, staring directly at Singapore's foreign minister, George Yeo, according to several participants at the meeting.
26 Apr 22
https://amp.smh.com.au/world/xi-jinping-outlines-big-country-diplomacy-for-china-20141202-11yaj5.html
Hong Kong: China must establish "big country diplomacy with Chinese characteristics", Chinese President Xi Jinping said in a speech that laid out his goals for making the nation a major strategic power, a further sign he's jettisoned a longstanding policy to limit involvement in foreign affairs.
26 Apr 22
@vivify saidChina loves to flex its size and power over other nations like I said. What do you disagree with?
And your point is? I never claimed China wasn't a "big" country, I pointed out that unlike the U.S. and Russia, China prefers to use it's massive markets rather than its giant military as a foreign policy tool.
26 Apr 22
@vivify saidI do not think it’s close neighbours like Japan and India would see it that way.
And your point is? I never claimed China wasn't a "big" country, I pointed out that unlike the U.S. and Russia, China prefers to use it's massive markets rather than its giant military as a foreign policy tool.
Certainly in terms of wider geopolitical tensions China prefers to out perform its adversaries rather than outgun them.
26 Apr 22
@athousandyoung saidI don't disagree. I was making the point that when it comes to military might specifically, China, compared to the U.S. and Russia, prefers to use alternate ways of flexing its muscles (except when it comes to territories it has claims over, like Taiwan and Hong Kong).
China loves to flex its size and power over other nations like I said. What do you disagree with?
@vivify saidIt’s worth pointing out that Russia already “has claims over” Ukraine. Their position is very similar to China’s regarding Taiwan actually.
I don't disagree. I was making the point that when it comes to military might specifically, China, compared to the U.S. and Russia, prefers to use alternate ways of flexing its muscles (except when it comes to territories it has claims over, like Taiwan and Hong Kong).
26 Apr 22
@athousandyoung saidDo you think the USA would treat Mexico or Canada the way that Russia is treating Ukraine?
TLDR: Why does USA get Monroe Doctrine but Russia doesn’t get Ukraine? Why are Russia’s security concerns taken more seriously by some people than Ukraine’s security concerns? Is it simply USA>Russia>Ukraine and we should just accept it?
Putin not long ago criticized the USA using the old Roman phrase “Quod Licet Jovi, Non Licet Bovi” which translates to “What Jupit ...[text shortened]... an reasonably demand from the international community? Is it might makes right, money rules or…what?
The problem with Russia is that it is tying to dominate neighbours that have their own sense of their place in their local world.
Russia has no history of dominating Europe in any sustained or meaningful way and Europeans hadn’t experienced Russian domination until WWII allowed them to fill the spaces left by the retreating Wehrmacht. The following 50 years were a trauma for most Central and Eastern Europeans, Putin was a child of that era and an adult KGB officer in east Germany so obviously views the era as a golden one.
Russia is not the US, and it was never its equal, it has never been more than a regional power outside the soviet era, it’s also never really committed itself to democracy going from the royal absolutist tsars to the communist absolutist tsars and now the Putin regime.
To your general question nations should be equal just as people should be equal but in reality the strong subdue and extort the weak if given half a chance.
Putin has decided Russia has a chance to do exactly that in Europe but the truth is all he has is his nukes. If they want to dominate and extort Ukraine the least they should have to do is fight a well armed Ukraine.
26 Apr 22
@athousandyoung saidNot quite.
It’s worth pointing out that Russia already “has claims over” Ukraine. Their position is very similar to China’s regarding Taiwan actually.
Ukraine is recognized as a sovereign nation, unlike Taiwan. Also, Russia formally recognized Ukraine's independence, unlike China with Taiwan.
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27 Apr 22
@athousandyoung saidWell, Russia hasn't quite taken over...
If might makes right why don’t we let Russia have Ukraine? Is this all really just about the West dominating Russia by force?
that would be the demonstration of 'might.'