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Originally posted by FMFPeople, and I'm guilty of this too from time to time, tend to de-humanize the other side in conflicts. I firmly believe that people on both sides fundamentally want peace. Why would anyone on either side want perpetual conflict rather than peace? It makes no sense to me.
Sounds to me like Seitse and Sleepyguy have given up on it while you haven't yet. Do you think the Seitses and Sleepyguys of this world make peace some day less possible or more possible?
Religious radicalism and propaganda by those whom conflict benefits weighs against this desire. I think more of this exists on the Palestinian side, though of course, some exists on the Israeli side as well. Sooner or later though, the people can break through this barrier and demand peace.
Giving up hope on peace makes no sense. If you locked the median Israeli and the median Palestinian in a room for 24 hours, I'll bet they could make a deal that would be palatable to the majority of people on both sides. It's not easy to break through the rhetoric but it can be done.
I'll share another quick story regarding my recent trip to Israel in this vein. I've been reluctant to go into it for various reasons, but it is absolutely a true story.
I was traveling with an older male family member; we'll leave it at that (not my father, BTW). Early Thursday morning (maybe about 6:00) we took a cab to the "kotel" (western wall) to see (and participate in) the early morning prayer services there. The cab ride cost about 26 shekels (under $10) and there was no traffic at that hour.
By the time we were ready to go back to the hotel, it was about 7:30, which of course is during morning rush hour. We got into a random cab on line waiting for fares near the kotel. The driver was clearly an Arab man, though of course it's impossible to tell if he was Israeli Arab or Palestinian.
My older relative asked how much to the hotel and he said "40 shekels." My relative stormed and fumed and threatened to leave the taxi (you can negotiate taxi fares in Jerusalem) because he wanted so much more than the ride on the way over. I tried to calm him down by saying there's more traffic now and the driver said the same, but he angrily negotiated him down to 30 or 35 (I forget). I was a little embarrassed as I slunk lower in the back seat.
During the ride, my relative tried to strike up a conversation with the cab driver, but the cab driver said, in the halting English that all Jerusalem cab drivers can speak, that he was too upset to talk. I suppose he could have been acting, but it seems to me that he was being genuine.
When we got to the hotel, I said "I'll pay" to my relative. He said "Okay; but give him 30" as he got out of the car. When he was out of the car, I slipped the guy a 50 shekel bill, held up my hand to indicate no change was needed, and looked him in the eye and said "Thank you and I apologize for all of that," motioning out of the car with my head. The driver gave me what was absolutely a sincere soft, surprised and thankful look and said "Thank you and have a nice day." And he meant it.
Now, I have no idea what this person's political views are. For all I know, he wants me dead. But for that one moment, he saw me as another human being and I saw him as the same. It wasn't the extra 5 or 6 bucks. That's chump change, even in Jerusalem. It was the fact that I went out of my way to show some sympathy for him and he showed me sincere appreciation for the gesture.
I don't know that guy from Adam, but if he and I sat down to iron out a deal, I'll bet dollars to donuts that we could come up with something palatable to the majority of both sides.
Each side needs to see the humanity in the people in the other side. Giving out candy to celebrate the slaughter of babies doesn't do that; and nor does subjecting people to needless humiliating security measures. But there is absolutely no reason that both sides cannot come to respect the humanity in the other.
Hence, I refuse to give up hope for peace.
</rant>
p.s., i had a similar experience at Beijing airport. apparently this (unofficial) guy scopes out distressed people, esp. in the wrong line (we were at the international line but should have been in domestic, for a connecting flight to Shanghai, and were late), and cuts them to the front of the line at a counter they should be at by nudging past whoever's at the front of the line. my companion didn't want to pay him what he asked, he exuded an noise of hurt shock, acting or not, and i slipped him an extra $5 on the sly (~40 RMB).
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Originally posted by Seitse...
Really? How long?
If we count from the dawn of time, starting with Muhammad,
you really would faint with the figures of how many Christians
and Jews have been massacred or humiliatingly subjected to
dhimmi status.
The dawn of time, starting with Muhammed?
😕
http://athousandyoung.blogspot.com/2010/12/history-and-prehistory-of-everything.html
Originally posted by SeitseIndeed, the birth of the Mohammedian religion evidently unleashed the evils of fundamentalism into the world, ever since this pandora's box was opened there wasn't a single Jew or Christian in the region who lived his life unperturbed by the visions of jihad preached by the Muslim. Surely the best solution to the problem has always been known by everyone, there is no option but to confront these forces of evil with the military might of the West.
The dawn of time meaning this conflict.
Do you believe it goes before Muhammad
was not even a twinkle in the milkman's eye?
Originally posted by generalissimoGod, I hope that's sarcasm.
Indeed, the birth of the Mohammedian religion evidently unleashed the evils of fundamentalism into the world, ever since this pandora's box was opened there wasn't a single Jew or Christian in the region who lived his life unperturbed by the visions of jihad preached by the Muslim. Surely the best solution to the problem has always been known by everyo ...[text shortened]... , there is no option but to confront these forces of evil with the military might of the West.
Originally posted by shavixmirPick a moment where the land was empty or inhabited by
Ah, so you only want to take it back as far as it suits you, not to any logical or measurable moment?
a group other than Hebrews or Arabs. There's none.
If you really, really look at it objectively, the reality is that
both have a right to the land. The solution back in the 40s
was good: some land for Israel, some land for Arabs. Then
the opportunity came again, but Arafat blew it by sending
his terrorists to do the deed.
It seems they just couldn't bear the idea of Jews there, could they?
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Originally posted by AThousandYoungI liked the timeline but it might usefully be edited to incorporate the life of Muhammad, 570 CE to 632 CE.
...
The dawn of time, starting with Muhammed?
😕
http://athousandyoung.blogspot.com/2010/12/history-and-prehistory-of-everything.html
Mahatma Gandhi stated: "I wanted to know the best of the life of one who holds today an undisputed sway over the hearts of millions of mankind.... I became more than ever convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the Prophet the scrupulous regard for pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in his own mission. These and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every obstacle. When I closed the second volume (of the Prophet's biography), I was sorry there was not more for me to read of that great life".
Originally posted by finneganDone.
I liked the timeline but it might usefully be edited to incorporate the life of Muhammad, 570 CE to 632 CE.
Mahatma Gandhi stated: "I wanted to know the best of the life of one who holds today an undisputed sway over the hearts of millions of mankind.... I became more than ever convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days ...[text shortened]... the Prophet's biography), I was sorry there was not more for me to read of that great life".