@Earl-of-Trumps saidSo, like the kinks in democracies and capitalism should have been worked out by now too?
@shavixmir
If we had been born and raised in such a system we surely would have the kinks worked put by now.
@shavixmir saidPeople at those levels are so easily corrupted. that won't change
So, like the kinks in democracies and capitalism should have been worked out by now too?
@AverageJoe1 saidWhat kind of straws are we clutching at now? I don't see what relevance Indonesian doctors' salaries have to what we're discussing, but since you raise it, Indonesian doctors are respected here, (and by the way, we have a superb health service) comparing the Indonesian economy with the American economy is futile, and if you think that you and your artificial 'intelligence' know more about how the Indonesian economy operates than do I, then you hang on to that thought....And as for leaving Indonesia to move to America, in my opinion nobody of sound mind would do such a thing, regardless of salary.
I will not embarrass you by starting a thread on this unbelievable Fact that I just turned up.
AI Overview
Based on 2026 data, the average salary for a doctor in Indonesia is approximately IDR 4.75 million to 10.88 million monthly, which converts to roughly $300 – $700 USD per month or about $3,600 – $8,400 USD annually.
NOrE: The average annual salary of the Ind ...[text shortened]... e are free. I am wrrign about the govt in indonesia apparently enslaves physicians. Prove me wrong.
Tell you what, instead of scratching your head trying to find fault with Indonesia, why don't you look up the dictionary definition of 'slavery', there you will find your proof that you're talking nonsense.
So you pay a lot of tax, but surely you don't begrudge a single dime of that to a government run by he who in your eyes can do no wrong; you've surely been contributing toward the war effort in Iran, you may have even paid for a whole missile by now. You're heart must be swelling with pride.
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@Indonesia-Phil saidIf a dr is employed on a salary and not free (brrrrrr) to practice his profession PRIVATELY and charge what he wants to, to not be restricted, so that he can buy a car each for his kids, and a lakehouse, and take his loving wife to Paris (that is how our learned physicians live) , then he works the man!
What kind of straws are we clutching at now? I don't see what relevance Indonesian doctors' salaries have to what we're discussing, but since you raise it, Indonesian doctors are respected here, (and by the way, we have a superb health service) comparing the Indonesian economy with the American economy is futile, and if you think that you and your artificial 'intellige ...[text shortened]... n Iran, you may have even paid for a whole missile by now. You're heart must be swelling with pride.
The government, Mother Government. . All that education, a saver of health and lives, a most valuable person, and is treated eeeeeeqqquuaaaal with the masses. He makes same as a restaurant chef, in a govt owned restaurant. Follow.? The grocery store guy, he is not owning his grocery, to get better and make a rich life. He is a slave, like the doctor.
I swear to you that I do not know one person that ever even thinks about the government except when it comes time to pay taxes on April 15. There are others like yourself who lean on the government, so that would make you somewhat of a slave, relying on the government like the cotton pickers did on the plantations for their food and housing.
Tell me I am wrong and how a physician can practice on his own and charge what he wants to. Or tell us if he at least has a choice in Indonesia. He would not have a choice in a socialist society. Hey, YOU stick to the issue, Drs are respected? So what? So is the shoe cobbler.
Artificial intelligence…?. What in the hell?
“How the Indonesian economy operates’ as you say, that is the issue. So you have said that drs work for the government. That statement is what Iresponded to. Do you want to rephrase?
I prefer a globally high innovative system to a rudimentary wait-in-line system. Do you have regular doctor? Do you really want to compare countries? Any of my friends who’ve needed new hip or knee? The wait is about 10 days. Mine was 5 days. You don’t want to discuss this. I have health insurance that cost about $250 a month. I never pay for anything when I go to a doctor. My insurance covers everything. Medicaid pick up that which is not covered, which is as close as we get to a socialist situation, but it is necessary for elders and indigent to keep a Country intact. We certainly don’t need it for everyone that lives here. They can take care of themselves with insurance.
Discussions about government involvement in lives of people gives me the creeps
@AverageJoe1 saidOkay, since you're so interested in this subject, let me explain. (nobody except Mr Average need read this, it's not particularly interesting...)
If a dr is employed on a salary and not free (brrrrrr) to practice his profession PRIVATELY and charge what he wants to, to not be restricted, so that he can buy a car each for his kids, and a lakehouse, and take his loving wife to Paris (that is how our learned physicians live) , then he works the man!
The government, Mother Government. . All that education, a sav ...[text shortened]... with insurance.
Discussions about government involvement in lives of people gives me the creeps
I live near to the city of Manado, in North Sulawesi. We, that is myself and she who is most beloved, pay about 200 (a bit less, actually) of your US dollars per month, health insurance, which is a government initiative, not a private insurance. Manado has several excellent hospitals, which are built and equipped by the government, (there would be no profit in private enterprise building hospitals)
The insurance covers ourselves and our three staff. (to live as an ex - pat in Indonesia you have to have staff, anyway we live in a big house on two hectares of land, and we need them! )
Neither of us has ever been hospitalised, but our staff have, and for the sum paid a person gets a private, air - conditioned room with a spare bed for any attendant relative or friend, and excellent, 24 hour medical care. Otherwise the doctor comes to you, at home, and on occasion we have used this service, and paid the doctor accordingly, so the doctor gets paid over and above his/her government salary.
So it's a sort of hybrid between government and private practise, and it works very well, doctors over here make 'good money' so you can ignore your IA in terms of comparative earnings. Without government funding there would be no hospitals or bandages, and this is a 'developing nation', so the AverageJoe Indonesian has literally no money, except that which they earn daily, so without government assistance they would die, if they became seriously ill. Doctors on the other hand take out mortgages, buy nice houses, travel abroad, and generally live the 'good life', as you and I understand it.
I hope that explains things a little better, and by the way, you still don't know what a 'slave' is. Is anyone who works for anybody else a 'slave'? This idea has socialist undertones, and I know you wouldn't want to be labelled as one of those.
(There, I told you it wasn't very interesting)
@Indonesia-Phil saidThank you I will take each paragraph one at a time as if we are talking at a table. I promise I have not read your letter.
Okay, since you're so interested in this subject, let me explain. (nobody except Mr Average need read this, it's not particularly interesting...)
I live near to the city of Manado, in North Sulawesi. We, that is myself and she who is most beloved, pay about 200 (a bit less, actually) of your US dollars per month, health insurance, which is a government initiative, n ...[text shortened]... you wouldn't want to be labelled as one of those.
(There, I told you it wasn't very interesting)
First paragraph, ….
Your system fits the realities of your country, especially given income levels and access issues. The government back healthcare system makes sense in a place where many people couldn’t afford care otherwise. So we can hardly compare our two countries. Our society bubbles along like crazy.
In that sense, I lean toward a system driven by private enterprise and market forces. You cannot say that in Indonesia, so we are at opposites end of a spectrum. I truly believe that competition and profit incentives are what lead to the highest levels of innovation, quality and long-term improvement. Especially in medicine. Surely you know that many of the treatments, technologies and drugs used worldwide actually come out of systems that reward that kind of investment and risk.
Libs have a problem with risk by the way
Also from a 100% conservative capitalist, kind of a guy, there is a trade-off that comes with government run systems. Our kind of investment and risk is rewarded greatly.
What is gained in access and stability, which you have, can sometimes lose an efficiency choice or speed of advancement. That is the most important thing I can say to you right now. Even if it is working right now, I’ll be worried about how sustainable or adaptable it would be without market pressure. I have to abstain as I do not understand your market pressure, if there is in fact, market pressure in your country.
No countries can apply the same models. A developing nation with lower incomes might need a different balance between government support and private care than a wealthy country does. Except for about 50 million indigent people in this country, who we should care for, everyone should be able to take care of themselves get jobs have health insurance, such as that. The sky is the limit. In socialism, the sky is not the limit. The government tells you what your limit is.
I cannot think of any way to live than to say to you that I prefer a system that leans heavily toward individual choice, private investment and competition. It may have uneven outcomes, but it leaves to tremendous advancement and going to the moon.
Let us say that neither of our systems is perfect, but I think one that advances and is innovative and creates things takes the lead.
@AverageJoe1 saidFair enough, a civilised exchange of views and circumstances, which is what these forums should be all about; here endeth the conversation from my end. Indonesia is a vast, wonderful country, we've lived here twenty - plus years, and have always found a warm and generous welcome. Predominantly Islamic, of course, but it's 'soft Islam', and religions intermarry freely; two people fall in love and one of them changes religion, church one day, mosque the next, or the other way around, none of it is taken all that seriously, at least where we live, and I think it's generally the case. Indonesia takes a fairly neutral stance in world affairs, which is just as well; if Indonesia went to war, they'd probably turn up late and miss it. Anyway moving here from the UK has sort of given us two lives for the price of one, so no complaints about that....
Thank you I will take each paragraph one at a time as if we are talking at a table. I promise I have not read your letter.
First paragraph, ….
Your system fits the realities of your country, especially given income levels and access issues. The government back healthcare system makes sense in a place where many people couldn’t afford care otherwise. So we can har ...[text shortened]... stems is perfect, but I think one that advances and is innovative and creates things takes the lead.
@Indonesia-Phil saidIf a war called for our presence, we would def not be late. Thus our differences. Of course. Certain people as president, and you know who that would be, likely would pass on our being where the USA should be. Our not participating would have an effect on all countries including yours. Be careful what you wish for. You def do not want USA to be neutral, What do men otherwise do there, then? Rhetorical, No answer needed! Cheers.
Fair enough, a civilised exchange of views and circumstances, which is what these forums should be all about; here endeth the conversation from my end. Indonesia is a vast, wonderful country, we've lived here twenty - plus years, and have always found a warm and generous welcome. Predominantly Islamic, of course, but it's 'soft Islam', and religions intermarry freely; ...[text shortened]... ere from the UK has sort of given us two lives for the price of one, so no complaints about that....
@AverageJoe1 saidLess than average intelligent Joe, that is why there is no debate.
This concept is beyond the understanding of every liberal on this Forum.
@AverageJoe1 saidIf you want more than 2% of the people paying for more than half of everything, then maybe you need to give the other 98% more money for whatever they do, so they will have extra to co-contribute.
This is a fact.....Over half of the NYC budget is paid by TWO PERCENT of the population. If they leave, NYC does not have that money.
Done. Sorted your problem, now pay me my consult fee, you fascist!
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@kmax87 saidI like a little humor, but let me tell you the fallacy of what you just wrote. It Is that what you are suggesting means that one person looks to another for something. That totally disembowels your statement. Think about it.
If you want more than 2% of the people paying for more than half of everything, then maybe you need to give the other 98% more money for whatever they do, so they will have extra to co-contribute.
Done. Sorted your problem, now pay me my consult fee, you fascist!
Dependence. “Have extra”? Where does this extra of which you speak come from?
“You need to give….????’ Who gives to whom.? And, why, pray tell.
@Earl-of-Trumps said
That's a riddle? I think it's perfectly clear.
Bigov purchases medicines and pays for medical care/services. The doctors aren't slaves, the taxpayers are
Family Guy Huck Finn skit:
Cleveland: I'm a runaway slave.
Peter: I'm running away because people want me to wear shoes and comb my hair so I guess we have the exact same problem.