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Originally posted by no1marauderThese figures have to be put into context if we are to have any real understanding of the Greek situation, which you stubborly refuse to acknowledge with your instinctive outbursts in support of "WORKERS". Greece has been living beyond its means, it has been borrowing more than it could pay, and in the end this turmoil is the inevitable result of a succession of misguided and irresponsible policies, its a situation which has been more or less avoided by other more fiscally responsible governments.
Typical right wing tripe. The figures quoted as regards the Greeks make your claims ludicrous; the average Greek works far more hours than workers in virtually any other country in the world and the "generous wages" you have invented are a fantasy; their workers are paid quite a bit less than virtually every country in the EuroZone. Blaming the workers f ...[text shortened]... ach into their pockets to bail out irresponsible bankers and members of the Greek kleptocracy.
Blaming the workers for something they had nothing to do with is a necessary first bit of spin to reach into their pockets to bail out irresponsible bankers and members of the Greek kleptocracy.
Nobody ever said the workers were the primary cause of this crisis, the only thing they're being accused of are of being inflexible and unrealistic in their demands to remain cozy and comfortable in the status quo, ignoring the changing economic landscape of europe. I have no more sympathy for these irresponsible bankers than you do, Im only pointing out that at some point we all have to accept the reality of the current situation and stop resorting to cheap ideological slogans about capitalist pigs and suffering workers.
I understand that publicly aligning yourself with the workers might score you some points in some circles, namely that of che guevara t-shirt-wearing armchair revolutionaries, but it does little to address the real problems people have in the real world.
Originally posted by generalissimo"Greece has been living beyond its means" is fetishism. Greek's government has been over-borrowing from willing bankers; the usual solution when someone makes a bad loan is that they lose money. But since that cannot be allowed, other institutions are willing to let Greece's government borrow even more money for the sole purpose of paying off the bad loans IF and only IF the Greek government imposes the usual set of IMF Friedmanish policies that punish blameless workers and create recessionary conditions in the country. The Greek workers are CORRECTLY rebelling against these policies of their government, the banks and the IMF and other institutions. That you can't see this because of your simplistic "Greece has been living beyond its means" platitude is your problem.
These figures have to be put into context if we are to have any real understanding of the Greek situation, which you stubborly refuse to acknowledge with your instinctive outbursts in support of "WORKERS". Greece has been living beyond its means, it has been borrowing more than it could pay, and in the end this turmoil is the inevitable result of a suc ...[text shortened]... and stop resorting to cheap ideological slogans about capitalist pigs and suffering workers.
Originally posted by no1marauderYou don't quite realize that the "average hours worked" figure is a little skewed. The most likely reason you find the Dutch at the bottom is the high percentage of women working part-time jobs - their Greek equivalent sitting at home. In any case, I'm sure we'll find common ground if I say that the severe undertaxation of the rich is the single most important cause of the Greek financial crisis.
Typical right wing tripe. The figures quoted as regards the Greeks make your claims ludicrous; the average Greek works far more hours than workers in virtually any other country in the world and the "generous wages" you have invented are a fantasy; their workers are paid quite a bit less than virtually every country in the EuroZone. Blaming the workers f ...[text shortened]... ach into their pockets to bail out irresponsible bankers and members of the Greek kleptocracy.
Originally posted by no1marauderGreece is a democracy with elected representatives. Those representatives embarked on a spending spree paying for social programs with borrowed money. None of this is debatable.
"Greece has been living beyond its means" is fetishism. Greek's government has been over-borrowing from willing bankers; the usual solution when someone makes a bad loan is that they lose money. But since that cannot be allowed, other institutions are willing to let Greece's government borrow even more money for the sole purpose of paying off the bad loa ...[text shortened]... e of your simplistic "Greece has been living beyond its means" platitude is your problem.
The claim that Greek workers are not responsible is specious -- those workers elected this government -- in stark contrast to Dutch, German, and French workers whose elected governments have also been spendthrift, but not to the same extent.
All of Europe has benefited from a common currency -- which a Greek default directly threatens BECAUSE if people begin asking, "Are these Greek euros or German euros? Am I holding Spanish euros, Irish euros, or French euros?" -- then we are effectively back to national currencies and monetary union has been destroyed.
That's why it is very important that Greek workers be forced to pay the price for their folly -- to save the workers (and others) in Spain, Ireland, and the rest of Europe.
Originally posted by KazetNagorraIn any case, I'm sure we'll find common ground if I say that the severe undertaxation of the rich is the single most important cause of the Greek financial crisis.
You don't quite realize that the "average hours worked" figure is a little skewed. The most likely reason you find the Dutch at the bottom is the high percentage of women working part-time jobs - their Greek equivalent sitting at home. In any case, I'm sure we'll find common ground if I say that the severe undertaxation of the rich is the single most important cause of the Greek financial crisis.
I'd agree with this.
Originally posted by no1marauderIs it more fetishism than condoning acts of vandalism by angry anarchists and disgruntled workers, in your usual strictly ideological fashion? What possible benefit could these protests bring to Greece and its troubled economy? Will the debt magically become less problematic once more windows are broken and more things are set on fire?
"Greece has been living beyond its means" is fetishism. Greek's government has been over-borrowing from willing bankers; the usual solution when someone makes a bad loan is that they lose money. But since that cannot be allowed, other institutions are willing to let Greece's government borrow even more money for the sole purpose of paying off the bad loa ...[text shortened]... e of your simplistic "Greece has been living beyond its means" platitude is your problem.
If anything its wildly ironic that you accuse me of posting simplistic platitudes when you come here lambasting the "kleptocracy" and praising the courageous rebellion of "blameless workers".
Originally posted by spruce112358Like most laissez faire advocates, you only apply standards of "moral hazards" to workers. The banks that made bad loans should not be bailed out; they took the risk and if they lose money TFB. If that brings down the corrupt plutocratic banking system of the EuroZone, so be it. If that somehow destroys the "monetary union", so be it.
Greece is a democracy with elected representatives. Those representatives embarked on a spending spree paying for social programs with borrowed money. None of this is debatable.
The claim that Greek workers are not responsible is specious -- those workers elected this government -- in stark contrast to Dutch, German, and French workers whose elected ...[text shortened]... or their folly -- to save the workers (and others) in Spain, Ireland, and the rest of Europe.
Of course, the ridiculous austerity measures do nothing to actually solve the debt problem; they are just standard cookie cutter measures imposed by the IMF and other banker dominated institutions on every country that is foolish enough to go to them with their hand out. The Friedmanites who run such organizations, when not raping maids, are busy trying to break worker power in every country they can for the greater good of the international capitalist elite. It's time for some country to have the ballsz to tell them to GFT.
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Originally posted by spruce112358It's not as if it's an all-or-nothing situation! In the first place, it's far from clear that all of Europe has benefited from a common currency; many commentators have argued that Greece's troubles stem partly from its inability to control interest rates, to devalue its currency, etc.
All of Europe has benefited from a common currency -- which a Greek default directly threatens BECAUSE if people begin asking, "Are these Greek euros or German euros? Am I holding Spanish euros, Irish euros, or French euros?" -- then we are effectively back to national currencies and monetary union has been destroyed.
Anyway, if circumstances oblige Greece to leave the euro, then how does that destroy monetary union? There will still be sixteen Eurozone members.
It would probably be an economic disaster for Greece in the short term, since everyone in the country would rush their Euro-denominated savings into foreign banks in fear of a drastic devaluation of the new drachma... Long-term, I'm not sure.
Originally posted by KazetNagorra"I'm sure we'll find common ground if I say that the severe undertaxation of the rich is the single most important cause of the Greek financial crisis."
You don't quite realize that the "average hours worked" figure is a little skewed. The most likely reason you find the Dutch at the bottom is the high percentage of women working part-time jobs - their Greek equivalent sitting at home. In any case, I'm sure we'll find common ground if I say that the severe undertaxation of the rich is the single most important cause of the Greek financial crisis.
That is the one tune in common with socialists. The rich, are to blame, even though in most cases they already pay a disproportionate amount of taxes, as well as support the economy with consumption, investment, hiring, and production.
The real victims of tax the rich scams are the consumers who end up paying higher prices, or who lose their jobs.
Originally posted by normbenignYawn. Why did Argentina default in the early 2000s? Absurdly low taxes.
"I'm sure we'll find common ground if I say that the severe undertaxation of the rich is the single most important cause of the Greek financial crisis."
That is the one tune in common with socialists. The rich, are to blame, even though in most cases they already pay a disproportionate amount of taxes, as well as support the economy with consumption, ...[text shortened]... ax the rich scams are the consumers who end up paying higher prices, or who lose their jobs.
Originally posted by no1marauderSo should we in the USA insist on the end of the FED and its relationship to international banking cartels?
Like most laissez faire advocates, you only apply standards of "moral hazards" to workers. The banks that made bad loans should not be bailed out; they took the risk and if they lose money TFB. If that brings down the corrupt plutocratic banking system of the EuroZone, so be it. If that somehow destroys the "monetary union", so be it.
Of ...[text shortened]... tional capitalist elite. It's time for some country to have the ballsz to tell them to GFT.
Originally posted by KazetNagorraAbsurdly low taxes? Taxation is only low in relationship to out of control spending. I'm betting that both Argentina and Greece have a lot of money to spend, but just spend a lot more than they have, just like the USA.
Yawn. Why did Argentina default in the early 2000s? Absurdly low taxes.
Originally posted by spruce112358There is no such thing as Greek Euros or German Euros. That makes no sense.
All of Europe has benefited from a common currency -- which a Greek default directly threatens BECAUSE if people begin asking, "Are these Greek euros or German euros? Am I holding Spanish euros, Irish euros, or French euros?" -- then we are effectively back to national currencies and monetary union has been destroyed.