This happened in a rural community not far from where I live:
WILTON -- As the family of Nicholas Naumkin prepared to lay their 12-year-old son to rest, police announced Monday that the boy who shot and killed him will be charged with manslaughter.
Michael O'Rourke, also 12, will be petitioned in Saratoga County Family Court. The boy's father, Edward O'Rourke, 56, of 1 Birchwood Drive, was charged with endangering the welfare of a child, a misdemeanor. O'Rourke was arraigned in Town Court and scheduled to return Jan. 25.
According to Saratoga County Sheriff James Bowen, the boys were left alone in the O'Rourke house to play video games on Wednesday. During that time, they found Edward O'Rourke's unloaded handgun in a holster hidden under clothes in his bedroom in a dresser drawer. They played with it awhile, then found a loaded clip in another drawer and inserted it into the pistol. The gun was loaded and unloaded several times before it discharged, Bowen said in a statement.
Naumkin fell to the floor with a head wound. Michael O'Rourke called 911 around 7 p.m. Naumkin was pronounced dead later in the day at Albany Medical Center.
Edward O'Rourke has a permit for the handgun, but according to the sheriff he was charged with a crime because he left "unsecured, loose ammunition" in his house.
Funeral services are scheduled for 9:30 a.m. Tuesday at the New England Congregational Presbyterian Church, 24 Circular St., Saratoga Springs. A fund has been created to help the Naumkin family pay for funeral expenses. Donations may be made to the Nicholas Naumkin Funeral Fund at Glens Falls National Bank.
Yuri Naumkin, the victim's father, is a Russian immigrant who said Thursday he moved his family from Brooklyn to Wilton about four years ago to avoid "the guns and gangs" of the city.
Nicholas Naumkin was in seventh grade at Maple Avenue Middle School, where he was on the honor roll. He was fluent in Russian and English and excelled in writing and the arts. He had taken ballet classes. Besides his parents, Yuri and Oksana Naumkin, he is survived by a 7-year-old brother, Peter.
http://www.timesunion.com/local/article/12-year-old-in-Wilton-shooting-charged-with-922995.php
Two questions:
1) Should a 12 year old be charged with manslaughter?
2) Should the owner of a legal handgun who stored it separately from the ammunition be charged with endangering the welfare of a child?
I'm inclined to say yes to 1 (recognizing that the case is in a Family Court; I might well reconsider if the case goes to a criminal court) and no to 2 (assuming you have the "right" to have a handgun for self-defense it seems that the father here took reasonable steps to prevent the kids from getting ahold of the gun and ammo; further measures like locking up either the gun and/or the ammo would seriously reduce the efficacy of the handgun for defense against home invasion), but I admit not being sure of either conclusion. I'd like to hear other's opinions (preferably not simply ones stating "all private handgun ownership should be banned"😉.
Originally posted by no1marauderYes to both questions.
Two questions:
1) Should a 12 year old be charged with manslaughter?
2) Should the owner of a legal handgun who stored it separately from the ammunition be charged with endangering the welfare of a child?
I'm inclined to say yes to 1 (recognizing that the case is in a Family ...[text shortened]... ns (preferably not simply ones stating "all private handgun ownership should be banned"😉.
At what point would you consider the separate storage of the gun and ammunition safe?
Say the gun was stored under the bed and the ammunition in the bedside cabinet drawer?
Gun stored in upstairs bedroom, ammunition in kitchen cupboard out of reach of child, yet still accessible if the child climbs onto a chair?
Even having the gun/ammunition locked away, would it matter if the owner had a spare key that was left in a place that the child knew?
Originally posted by adramforallNo measure is ever completely "safe" when you are dealing with a deadly weapon. Which of the measures that you spell out would you say are "reasonable"?
Yes to both questions.
At what point would you consider the separate storage of the gun and ammunition safe?
Say the gun was stored under the bed and the ammunition in the bedside cabinet drawer?
Gun stored in upstairs bedroom, ammunition in kitchen cupboard out of reach of child, yet still accessible if the child climbs onto a chair?
...[text shortened]... away, would it matter if the owner had a spare key that was left in a place that the child knew?
Originally posted by no1marauderNo to the manslaughter for the child. And no to criminal charges on the father.
This happened in a rural community not far from where I live:
WILTON -- As the family of Nicholas Naumkin prepared to lay their 12-year-old son to rest, police announced Monday that the boy who shot and killed him will be charged with manslaughter.
Michael O'Rourke, also 12, will be petitioned in Saratoga County Family Court. The b ...[text shortened]... not simply ones stating "all private handgun ownership should be banned"😉.
However, a 12 year old should be well versed in the use of guns and safety especially if there are guns in the home.
At 12 years there were more guns in my house than I can count. Literally one behind each door as well as other places. The ammo was stored separate.
I was also instructed at a very young age how to use them properly and it was drilled into my head that they were not toys.
It sounds to me that this father kept the handgun a secret from his son and never exposed the boy to proper safety procedures and instruction on how to handle a firearm.
Then when the boy found it his obvious imaturity kicked into play, followed by a tragic accident.
If anything the father was neglectful for not teaching his son.
Originally posted by utherpendragonAs with many other things like drugs and sex, keeping children ignorant does not keep them safe.
No to the manslaughter for the child. And no to criminal charges on the father.
However, a 12 year old should be well versed in the use of guns and safety especially if there are guns in the home.
At 12 years there were more guns in my house than I can count. Literally one behind each door as well as other places. The ammo was stored separate. ...[text shortened]... ollowed by a tragic accident.
If anything the father was neglectful for not teaching his son.
Originally posted by utherpendragonYou're making a lot of assumptions. I think I'll wait until I get more facts before I decide whether the child knew there was a gun in the house and/or had been properly instructed as regards to such weapons.
No to the manslaughter for the child. And no to criminal charges on the father.
However, a 12 year old should be well versed in the use of guns and safety especially if there are guns in the home.
At 12 years there were more guns in my house than I can count. Literally one behind each door as well as other places. The ammo was stored separate. ...[text shortened]... ollowed by a tragic accident.
If anything the father was neglectful for not teaching his son.
If a 12 year old "should be well versed in the use of guns and safety", then I fail to see why a manslaughter charge is inappropriate. 2nd degree Manslaughter in NY is when someone "recklessly causes the death of another person" and "recklessly" is defined in the Penal Law as when someone "is aware of and consciously disregards a substantial and unjustifiable risk that [death] will occur." Even a 12 year old child is aware that when you aim a loaded gun at someone there is a "substantial" risk that death may occur so, to me, the charge seems justified.
Originally posted by utherpendragonYep.
If anything the father was neglectful for not teaching his son.
But then again, you can get one of those little lock boxes with the push button combination for under $100. Solves the problem of keeping the kids away from the gun, and still keeps it available for use if someone kicks in the door.
As to no1's question; No on the manslaughter for the kid (cuz he's a kid), and yes on the old man endangering the kids. There's nothing reasonable about leaving two 12 year old's alone with an unsecured gun and ammo. Even if his son had been taught gun safety (which seems unlikely), he's got to keep the other kid safe too.
Originally posted by no1marauderTrue, I am assuming too much. The kids actions seem to say he was ignorant about safety and fire arms.
You're making a lot of assumptions. I think I'll wait until I get more facts before I decide whether the child knew there was a gun in the house and/or had been popularly instructed as regards to such weapons.
If a 12 year old "should be well versed in the use of guns and safety", then I fail to see why a manslaughter charge is inappr is a "substantial" risk that death may occur so, to me, the charge seems justified.
BUT IF he did know, about the firearm being in the house and had received proper instruction on its use and safety and acted this way anyhow... yes the 12 yr old should be charged IMO.
Edit: its got to be a judgement call for the parent. He felt the kid was old enough to be home alone w/another youth. Did he feel the kid could be trusted not to go in his room and search for the gun and ammo? Then use it? You got to know your children.
Originally posted by SleepyguyI'm wavering on the father; perhaps what would have been "reasonable" steps under these circumstances is a legitimate issue for a jury.
Yep.
But then again, you can get one of those little lock boxes with the push button combination for under $100. Solves the problem of keeping the kids away from the gun, and still keeps it available for use if someone kicks in the door.
As to no1's question; No on the manslaughter for the kid (cuz he's a kid), and yes on the old man endangering the ...[text shortened]... had been taught gun safety (which seems unlikely), he's got to keep the other kid safe too.
I still believe that a 12 year old of average intelligence is aware that pointing a loaded gun at another person creates a substantial risk of death and that, therefore, manslaughter is an appropriate charge under these circumstances.
Originally posted by utherpendragonEven if he did trust his own kid (poor judgment there), how could he leave the gun and ammo unsecured while the other kid was around?
True, I am assuming too much. The kids actions seem to say he was ignorant about safety and fire arms.
BUT IF he did know, about the firearm being in the house and had received proper instruction on its use and safety and acted this way anyhow... yes the 12 yr old should be charged IMO.
Edit: its got to be a judgement call for the parent. He fe ...[text shortened]... to go in his room and search for the gun and ammo? Then use it? You got to know your children.
Bottom line, parents are responsible for ensuring a reasonably safe environment for their kids. An unsecured gun and ammo doesn't jive with that responsibility.
If a 1 year old chokes to death on a marble you blame the parent that let them get hold of a marble. Likewise for unsupervised 12 year old boys getting hold of a gun and ammo. The father failed in his responsibility to keep them safe, even from themselves.
Originally posted by SleepyguyHow about a hypothetical?
Even if he did trust his own kid (poor judgment there), how could he leave the gun and ammo unsecured while the other kid was around?
Bottom line, parents are responsible for ensuring a reasonably safe environment for their kids. An unsecured gun and ammo doesn't jive with that responsibility.
If a 1 year old chokes to death on a marble you b ...[text shortened]... gun and ammo. The father failed in his responsibility to keep them safe, even from themselves.
Suppose Father has trained his 12 year old how to properly handle a weapon.
Suppose Father has to leave for a good and sufficient reason leaving his son and another 12 year old in the home.
Suppose an intruder breaks in and the kid runs to where the gun and ammo is and secures it.
Would you have a problem with Father if:
A) Kid shot Intruder to death; or
B) Intruder shot Kid to death.
EDIT: It's not a total hypothetical: http://www.ksla.com/global/story.asp?s=10741492
Originally posted by no1marauderThis was clearly an isolated incident. Guns are the greatest thing America can offer the world! That kid would have died sooner or later anyway, as to the kid that shot him...well, he's clearly more American than the other kid, that's why he's still alive. He should get a medal, not jail time! We need more guns. GUNS DAMMIT! That's why America stands alone as that great shining city on the hill!!🙄
This happened in a rural community not far from where I live:
WILTON -- As the family of Nicholas Naumkin prepared to lay their 12-year-old son to rest, police announced Monday that the boy who shot and killed him will be charged with manslaughter.
Michael O'Rourke, also 12, will be petitioned in Saratoga County Family Court. The b ...[text shortened]... not simply ones stating "all private handgun ownership should be banned"😉.
Originally posted by no1marauderYes I see that point. But kids make stupid mistakes. If he knew it was loaded, and deliberately pointed it etc I would rethink it. My assumption is that they were just screwing around, and his unfamiliarity with how the gun worked caused an accident. He might not have realized there was a round in the chamber and so the gun was loaded even though the mag was out, for example.
I still believe that a 12 year old of average intelligence is aware that pointing a loaded gun at another person creates a substantial risk of death and that, therefore, manslaughter is an appropriate charge under these circumstances.
Originally posted by SleepyguyI agree more facts are needed than what are given in the news article. It does say they loaded and unloaded the gun several times, but we don't have any information on how familiar the child was with the gun. Good point.
Yes I see that point. But kids make stupid mistakes. If he knew it was loaded, and deliberately pointed it etc I would rethink it. My assumption is that they were just screwing around, and his unfamiliarity with how the gun worked caused an accident. He might not have realized there was a round in the chamber and so the gun was loaded even though the mag was out, for example.
Originally posted by no1marauderHmm,
How about a hypothetical?
Suppose Father has trained his 12 year old how to properly handle a weapon.
Suppose Father has to leave for a good and sufficient reason leaving his son and another 12 year old in the home.
Suppose an intruder breaks in and the kid runs to where the gun and ammo is and secures it.
...[text shortened]... death.
EDIT: It's not a total hypothetical: http://www.ksla.com/global/story.asp?s=10741492
Good question.
I would sure as heck question his judgment, because kids are kids. It doesn't seem reasonable to me to leave a 12 year old unsupervised with access to guns and ammo.
It's a tougher call though because the kid in your hypothetical does nothing negligent with the firearm (assuming he wasn't just shooting at the UPS guy).