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Debates Forum

  1. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    04 Jul '10 07:14 / 1 edit
    Best wishes on the July of 4th to those of you who commemorate it! Breaking away from the British Empire and establishing an independent state is surely one of the most momentous and stirring events in the history of the world in the modern era.
  2. Standard member wolfgang59
    Infidel
    04 Jul '10 07:29
    Originally posted by FMF
    Best wishes on the July of 4th to those of you who commemorate it! Breaking away from the British Empire and establishing an independent state is surely one of the most momentous and stirring events in the history of the world in the modern era.
    It's too early to say.
  3. Subscriber kmax87
    You've got Kevin
    04 Jul '10 08:05
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    It's too early to say.
    .what? ...the whole congrats on them having actually established an independent state part?....
  4. Standard member wolfgang59
    Infidel
    04 Jul '10 08:14
    Originally posted by kmax87
    .what? ...the whole congrats on them having actually established an independent state part?....
    no ... this bit

    independent state is surely one of the most momentous and stirring events in the history of the world in the modern era.
  5. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    04 Jul '10 08:18
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    no ... this bit

    independent state is surely one of the most momentous and stirring events in the history of the world in the modern era.
    "event"
  6. Subscriber kmax87
    You've got Kevin
    04 Jul '10 08:18
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    no ... this bit

    independent state is surely one of the most momentous and stirring events in the history of the world in the modern era.
    by way of comparison would you rate the bolshevik revolution of 1917 as having a more significant impact
  7. Standard member wolfgang59
    Infidel
    04 Jul '10 08:49
    Originally posted by kmax87
    by way of comparison would you rate the bolshevik revolution of 1917 as having a more significant impact
    A significant effect on the 20th Century but a mere 70 year blip so far as history is concerned. In 100 years time do you think the effects of Russian Communism will still be felt? No.

    Significant historical events are surely those whose repurcussions can still be felt.

    (Leaving aside Religion ...)
    The rise of the Greek states.
    The division of the Roman Empire.
    The Renaissance.
    The Spanish Empire in America.
    The French revolution.
    (Apologies for being so Eurocentric)

    The events above have reverberated through the years and have consequences today.
  8. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    04 Jul '10 08:59
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    Significant historical events are surely those whose repurcussions can still be felt.
    [...]
    The rise of the Greek states.
    The division of the Roman Empire.
    The Renaissance.
    The Spanish Empire in America.
    The French revolution. [...]

    The events above have reverberated through the years and have consequences today.
    Nothing wrong with your list. Why don't you think the American Revolution belongs on it?
  9. Standard member wolfgang59
    Infidel
    04 Jul '10 09:29
    Originally posted by FMF
    Nothing wrong with your list. Why don't you think the American Revolution belongs on it?
    I dont think the revolution affects us now.
    The US would have got independence from Britain eventually.
    And an independent US has acted much as would a colony.

    IF the US had become a dictatorship (Communist or Fascist) then that would have had an impact.
    IF the US had become isolationist then that too would have changed the world.

    The fact is American values are much the same as UK values - and therefore the Revolution was not some huge pivotal moment in world history.

    Incidently:- I am not suggesting that the US has had an insignificant effect on history; only that the American Revolution was not a huge historical turning point. The US has obviously had a huge effect on the 20th Century.
  10. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    04 Jul '10 09:49 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    I am not suggesting that the US has had an insignificant effect on history; only that the American Revolution was not a huge historical turning point.
    How many constitutions were there in the world at the end of the 18thC like the one the U.S. created for itself after it declared its independence from Britain? How many constitutions around the world have been inspired by, or closely based on, the constitution of the newly independent U.S.? How many South American countries, for instance, declared or won their independence from their European masters in the 20-30 years after the establishment of the U.S.A.?

    I reckon the American Revolution was a huge historical turning point that created unprecedented templates for a nation state and popular democracy that hadn't existed before - and the world hasn't been quite the same since.
  11. 04 Jul '10 09:51
    well, I guess it is a valid point that someday the US probably would have gained independence, but who knows what that would have looked like.

    Would they have been a Commonwealth and loyal to Britain? Would France or Spain have laid some claim to the US or part of the US?

    Also, they were a powerful demonstration of the formation of democracy on the world stage.

    Certainly we Americans view our own history with bias....but I think there is some valid thought about the power of forming a democracy. It is almost as if we realized the goals of the French Revolution...whereas Napoleon brought them back into a realm of darkness. We finished what they started.

    So, I think there is some argument to be made about the US's importance on the world stage.

    Not saying that we have always been a good influence on the world stage, but I think early on...the first 50, 100 years, we were a positive example of a model of democracy.
  12. Standard member wolfgang59
    Infidel
    04 Jul '10 10:13 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by r99pawn77
    well, I guess it is a valid point that someday the US probably would have gained independence, but who knows what that would have looked like.

    Would they have been a Commonwealth and loyal to Britain? Would France or Spain have laid some claim to the US or part of the US?

    Also, they were a powerful demonstration of the formation of democracy on the I think early on...the first 50, 100 years, we were a positive example of a model of democracy.
    Its a good point you make about realising the goals of the French Revolution, one should also acknowledge Magna Carta and the Roman Republic for their influence.

    And nobody would deny the influence of the US on the world stage!
  13. Standard member wolfgang59
    Infidel
    04 Jul '10 10:19
    Originally posted by FMF
    How many constitutions were there in the world at the end of the 18thC like the one the U.S. created for itself after it declared its independence from Britain? How many constitutions around the world have been inspired by, or closely based on, the constitution of the newly independent U.S.? How many South American countries, for instance, declared or won their ...[text shortened]... popular democracy that hadn't existed before - and the world hasn't been quite the same since.
    The US governmental system of; a bicameral legislature, an independent judiciary, and a separate head of state has been copied yes.
    But I think maybe Britain got their first.

    And OK - you wrote your constitution down - we have to remember ours!

    **************** HAPPY 4th JULY EVERYONE ********************
  14. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    04 Jul '10 10:21
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    And OK - you wrote your constitution down - we have to remember ours!
    "You"? "We"? "Ours"?
  15. Standard member wolfgang59
    Infidel
    04 Jul '10 10:27
    Originally posted by FMF
    "You"? "We"? "Ours"?
    Try and figure it out!