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Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. 15 Dec '09 05:15 / 6 edits
    I once thought that a new health care plan was inevitable. Why not when national health care plan has been the holy grail of the Democrat party for such a long time and with them now firmly in control of all aspects of government. However, last month I got a glimmer of hope that they may abandon yet another unaffordable massive entitlement program when 49% of Americans opposed the new legislation and only 46% approved. But this month, CNN did another poll showing 61% of American oppose the new plan now circulating through Congress and only 36% approve!!

    http://realclearpolitics.blogs.time.health-care-collapsees/

    With numbers like this, how can even a Democratic Congress ram this down the throats of Americans, let alone by Christmas? Whether this legislation passes or not, is this the beginning of the end for the progressive movement? Is this their Waterloo? Have Americans grown weary of a government that is out of control regarding spending and taxation and government control? Perhaps they will fall on their swords and pass it, but I have a sneaking suspicion that this will not be the final word if they do.
  2. 15 Dec '09 05:35
    your link don't work and it's got a mispelling.
  3. 15 Dec '09 05:47 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by zeeblebot
    your link don't work and it's got a mispelling.
    EEkks!! Just google cnn and health care and 61% and you should find it easy enough. Really, it is a very short article that just states the facts of the poll. It does not elaborate any further. After all, this is CNN we are talking about. I am amazed they even posted the data. Discussing it I think would be too much to ask.

    I'll give it another go.

    http://realclearpolitics.blogs.time.com/2009/12/10/cnn-support-for-health-care-collapses/
  4. 15 Dec '09 07:59
    If you think that if an opinion poll shows that more than 50% of the population is against a certain measure governments should never implement it you don't understand how democracy works.
  5. 15 Dec '09 13:55 / 3 edits
    The big challenge is to find a way to allow everyone to have access to the affordable health insurance. It is morally wrong for a nation as wealthy as the US to tell 10-15% of the population that they can't get the treatment they need if they get really sick just because they are poor or work for a company that's not able to provide coverage.

    I understand that in certain cases involving end-of-life care for the terminally ill, lines will have to be drawn, but for people where treatments exist to cure them or effectively manage their illnesses, we need to to find a way for those people to get the treatments.

    I'm fed up with hearing about all the ways in which this can't be done. What happened to the nation that was able to put a man on the moon? Everyone in Congress needs to be working on finding a way to get this done. Anyone who doesn't like any of the current plans on the table needs to stop complaining about them and put their own plan on the table.

    I'm very open to the idea of breaking the process down into smaller pieces and passing a series of smaller bills over the next few years. I'm very open to ideas that find creative ways to make use of the free marketplace. I'm very open to a lot of things. But I'm NOT open to the idea that we CAN'T do this.

    I'm fed up with strategies where one party decides to hope the other side fails. The GOP did it under Clinton, the Dems did it under Bush, The GOP is doing it now, the Dems will do it again in the future. At the end of the day, the only side that fails is the American side. America became a great nation because people here believed in doing the impossible. There is a solution. Find it. Do it.
  6. Standard member monster truck
    Walleye Guy
    15 Dec '09 14:28
    Originally posted by Melanerpes
    The big challenge is to find a way to allow everyone to have access to the affordable health insurance. It is morally wrong for a nation as wealthy as the US to tell 10-15% of the population that they can't get the treatment they need if they get really sick just because they are poor or work for a company that's not able to provide coverage.

    I unders ...[text shortened]... se people here believed in doing the impossible. There is a solution. Find it. Do it.
    By what moral code is it wrong?

    By what morality do you seek to take from one to give to another?
  7. 15 Dec '09 14:38
    Originally posted by monster truck
    By what moral code is it wrong?

    By what morality do you seek to take from one to give to another?
    By the moral code that I believe in.

    Each of us has his own moral code. Whether it be the result of genetics, culture, or spiritual revelation. When each of us looks in the mirror, that's the only code they must answer to.

    If your moral code is "I got mine, **** you" - there's no way I can change your mind.

    If the majority of Americans truly follow the moral code of "I got mine, **** you" - then maybe there's no hope for universal access to affordable healthcare.
  8. Subscriber Wajoma
    Die Cheeseburger
    15 Dec '09 15:28
    Originally posted by Melanerpes
    By the moral code that I believe in.

    Each of us has his own moral code. Whether it be the result of genetics, culture, or spiritual revelation. When each of us looks in the mirror, that's the only code they must answer to.

    If your moral code is "I got mine, **** you" - there's no way I can change your mind.

    If the majority of Americans truly fol ...[text shortened]... ne, **** you" - then maybe there's no hope for universal access to affordable healthcare.
    I doubt you really believe in your so called code. If you enjoy any luxury (your computer and internet connection) if you enjoy any item of food above all that is needed to exist then you are saying precisely:

    "I got mine, **** you"

    ...to millions of people around the world.
  9. 15 Dec '09 16:18 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Wajoma
    I doubt you really believe in your so called code. If you enjoy any luxury (your computer and internet connection) if you enjoy any item of food above all that is needed to exist then you are saying precisely:

    "I got mine, **** you"

    ...to millions of people around the world.
    I know that FMF has been something of a shapeshifter at times, but this is unprecedented.

    seriously - you raise a legitimate point. We who live in America have so much more than the rest of the world. FMF has mentioned the people in Indonesia who have to make do on $2 a day. Surely there's some way to wipe out the extreme levels of poverty that so many people on this planet have to endure.

    But before we can even think of solving the problems of global poverty, we must first be able to find ways to ensure that within the wealthiest of nations, everyone who is willing to "play by the rules" can meet their basic needs which includes healthcare.

    You also raise another good point. We all probably can do a lot more to help the less fortunate than we're currently doing. I'm sure I'm doing a lot more of "I got mine, **** you" in my own life than I should be.
  10. Subscriber Wajoma
    Die Cheeseburger
    15 Dec '09 16:21
    Originally posted by Melanerpes
    I know that FMF has been something of a shapeshifter at times, but this is unprecedented.

    seriously - you raise a legitimate point. We who live in America have so much more than the rest of the world. FMF has mentioned the people in Indonesia who have to make do on $2 a day. Surely there's some way to wipe out the extreme levels of poverty that so ma ...[text shortened]... I'm sure I'm doing a lot more of "I got mine, **** you" in my own life than I should be.
    Yeah, just what I said, your so called moral code is just so much hot air.
  11. 15 Dec '09 16:32 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Wajoma
    Yeah, just what I said, your so called moral code is just so much hot air.
    If I consider the ultimate chess standard to be Bobby Fischer, does that mean that chess standards are themselves just a lot of hot air just because I'm not as good at chess as Fischer (and never will come close to being). And it does it mean that I'm not going to try to be as good at chess as I can?
  12. Subscriber Sleepyguy
    Reepy Rastardly Guy
    15 Dec '09 16:39
    Originally posted by Melanerpes
    If I consider the ultimate chess standard to be Bobby Fischer, does that mean that chess standards are themselves just a lot of hot air just because I'm not as good at chess as Fischer (and never will come close to being). And it does it mean that I'm not going to try to be as good at chess as I can?
    Be as good at chess or as altruistic as you want with your own time and money. But you are claiming that your own personal moral code is a justification to redistribute what belongs to others.
  13. 15 Dec '09 16:56
    We are a nation of personal moral codes.

    The laws we pass reflects the grand sum of everyone's moral codes. So if the majority agrees to pass a law (or not pass it) that levies a tax on the rich to raise money to help the poor, then that's what we do - even if it conflicts with many people's personal moral codes. So when I argue that the moral thing is to ensure that everyone has access to the healthcare that I need, I suppose I'm actually arguing on behalf of everyone who already personally share this moral code.

    If the majority of America really believes that it's okay for 10% of the population to be denied healthcare just because they're poor, then I must accept that my view is in the minority and that's just the way it's gonna be. Although I'd prefer that the people in Congress who hold this view be bold enough to just say so bluntly. What are they afraid of?

    But if a good majority of America agrees with my view, then it's a matter of pulling together, putting aside the partisan games, and finding a way to make this thing work.
  14. 15 Dec '09 17:15
    Originally posted by Melanerpes
    The big challenge is to find a way to allow everyone to have access to the affordable health insurance. It is morally wrong for a nation as wealthy as the US to tell 10-15% of the population that they can't get the treatment they need if they get really sick just because they are poor or work for a company that's not able to provide coverage.

    I unders ...[text shortened]... se people here believed in doing the impossible. There is a solution. Find it. Do it.
    I thought back during the abortion issue the left continually said we could not legislate morality? However, when it is morality they can agree with, all of a sudden its OK?
  15. 15 Dec '09 17:20 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by Melanerpes
    We are a nation of personal moral codes.

    The laws we pass reflects the grand sum of everyone's moral codes. So if the majority agrees to pass a law (or not pass it) that levies a tax on the rich to raise money to help the poor, then that's what we do - even if it conflicts with many people's personal moral codes. So when I argue that the moral thing is together, putting aside the partisan games, and finding a way to make this thing work.
    Agreed. Our laws are moral codes. All of them. So what to do about health care? So let me ask you, if you don't have enough money to help the poor, would you take out loans and give the money to the poor? If you ask me, that is morally a wrong thing to do. You are using other peoples money to give to the poor that you cannot pay back and have no intention of ever paying back. I am all for giving when I can, but the insanity has to stop. The interest alone on the national debt per year is close to $1 triilion and soon China will cut the US loans off. So where will we get the money once China cuts us off I wonder?